Does Salvation.....

Grace Saves,

All Christian non-Catholics respect the virgin Mary in her role in bringing to us our Savior. She is an example of faith, of what a marriage should be, and even of childrearing. The Bible gives not a hint that she is our co-Redemptrix and I do not think that even Catholics have an epistle that she wrote. I admire and am thankful for the writing of all the apostles epistles but I don't pray to or through them. And without saying, I have never uttered a prayer to or through Mary.

Your statements says, 'From the evidence we have, she seems to imply that this love of Jesus "results" in a love for His Mother.'

Again, since Mary did not write anything to lift our human spirits to love Jesus more, why should we elevate her above the Apostolate? And please, give us evidence from the words of Jesus that we should gravitate more toward Mary than we presently do.

 

Yes - love for Mary.

In fact the saints were tortured and burned at the stake for refusing to show so much love for Mary over the Bible that they would not call her "sinless like Christ" or pray to her or believe in her own sinless birth etc.

(Just the facts of history there - I suppose we could "revise it" to see if our RC bretheren would accept it better.)

In any case - have you noticed that when a Catholic church or hospital or school is "named" how often is it "Our Christ of the mountain" or something like that vs "Our Lady of...."?

How often is it "The church of the virgin birth" vs the "Church of the immaculate conception (of the baby Mary)"?

I find that almost as instructive as the number of prayers proliferated to Mary by comparison.

In Christ,

Bob

 

More flatulence from Bob.

 

I quoted what he wrote. People often ask questions by repeating things in a different way. Reading that question, I would have understood exactly what he was asking. But then I don't carry the baggage that you do and the necessity to be oversensitive to things. My appeal was simply to stop this foolish blamecasting and deal with the intent. If you misunderstood it the first time, fine; he could have worded it better. But then he explained what he meant. Get over it and talk about what he meant.

I think all familiar with RCC theology know that veneration of Mary is a key idea. You of all people should not be confused by this. Do you really think that MOther Angelica distinguishes between love and veneration for Mary??

 

He used the word "immediate" in his post so you are hard-pressed to say that is not what he was talking about. If you doubt me, just go back and look it up.

Second, I assume he was asking here because he couldn't ask her. This is probably the group of Catholics he has the most contact with and was asking of their experience. It was a great chance for you to explain to us how this "love" for Mary came into your life. Was it immediate? Did you learn it over time? How did it work? Instead of taking that opportunity, you guys see a great conspiracy theory going on ...

Very often, I see things on TV or hear them on the radio and have the general idea of what was said, but I can't remember where I heard it or even the person who said it. I quite often watch TV preachers just to see what they are saying. Most of the time I don't know their names. His point of using her as a base was that she was the one who said it.

To use an example, one day I heard a TV preacher (a black guy with a big church who has a little mustache and walks around the front and up and down the aisles) say that you should drive down the street and pick out the house you want and go up and ring the doorbell and tell those owners by faith that this is your house and God will give it to you. Now, I don't remember the guys name (some of you may be able to help me out; he is on all the time). I didn't not exactly quote him but I gave you the general idea. Maybe someone who remembers it or has heard this before can tell me more about it.

Would you accept that as an honest question? If so, that is exactly what Curtis did above. If you misunderstood, or if his wording was not as clear as it might have been, he clarified it. What else do you want?

How easy was that??? See, this whole three pages could have been summarized right there without all the testiness.

 

If this is the case then Jesus should have said, "John, take care of your 'sister' Mary."

Instead Jesus said:

John 19:26
When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He *said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"

John 19:27
Then He *said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]The greater concern for Jesus would have been his mother's well-being. Notice how John "took her into his own household." Quite clearly, Jesus was not talking about a spiritual relationship but rather a material one where John was to assume care for Mary as if he was his mother.

In other words, Jesus was not placing Mary in a special role over John; he was placing John in a special role over Mary. That is the only way to understand "he took her into his own household."

This accords very well with the first century custom that children cared for their parents in the later years. It is in fact in line with what Paul commanded of believers in 1 Tim 5. Jesus' brothers had probably abandoned the family (7:5) and probably did not even live in Jerusalem.

Additionally, there were many other followers of Christ there at the cross. To none of them did he make a similar statement; only to John. We must ask, If this relationship is a universal relationship, why didn't he tell anyone else there at the cross the same thing?? The failure of Christ to speak these words to others tells us that he did not intend for it to be a exaltation of Mary to a place of special love and veneration for all saints; he intended it to be a provision for Mary's future since Jesus was gone.

 

Really, you understand what he is actually talking about?

Whatever it might be, it certainly is fluid.

How long? How long for what?

Loving Mary?
Looking to Mary in matters of faith?
When Mary came into their walk with God?
Instill thoughts of Mary?

These are the various forms of his question.

Then it morphed yet again to a matter of the Holy Spirit verses Traditon.

Not a hint of it in his first 5 or six posts.

Then he claims "that" is what he was really asking.

 

Curtis, how much of your faith just came to you without the assistance of any other person?

By that I mean, how much of what you believe was just placed on you by the Holy Spirit without first hearing something from a pastor or preacher. Or without hearing a comment from another person. Or without reading something in a Bible commentary?

Are you willing to reject any belief that you hold because it didn't just come out of the blue to you in a instant?

No doubt you will now talk about comparing what you were told by others to Scripture. At that point how ever, you have already been predisposed to accept or reject a belief before reading the Scriptures. That would have colored your thinking in interpretting Scripture and would have biased you in your selection of what Scripture to apply.

BTW, how do you distinguish between what are your own thoughts and opinions and what is the leading of the Holy Spirit?

I have seen a lot of kooky beliefs from some (even Baptists) on this board to know that they can't all be from the Holy Spirit.

Even when a belief is not outright kooky, I have seen many differing and competeing beliefs among Baptists. How do you know which is actually led by the Holy Spirit?

Finally, how do you know that Traditions of the Church are not led by the Holy Spirit?

 

Yes, I did. I did not see anything sinister in it. Then he clarified it. So what??

You seem increasingly cranky lately. Is something wrong??

 

No. But a widowed mother (especially in 1st century Jewish culture) needed a man to provide for her. For whatever reason, Jesus chose John over his own half brothers for her care. He being the oldest son had such a responsibility.

Only if Mary were His "mother" in some sort of spiritual sense which she was not. She was the vessel whereby the incarnation of God was accomplished.

I agree. He asked John to take her into his household as if she were his own widowed mother- to care for her and provide for her needs. When widows entered the homes of their first sons, the women did not become the heads of the family. If any hierarchy was being established by Jesus' words it would have been to John as the head of the household to which Mary belonged. Mary had no spiritual authority nor parental authority over the adult Jesus. She would have rec'd no such authority over John.

The doctrine assumed by the RCC could have been spelled out by God through one of the NT writers. Certainly if valid, it would be an incredibly important tenet of faith. However even John to whom this command was made did not allude to such an idea.

 

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but thought I would throw this in.

While I was in the Navy (’92-’96) I visited Spain and witnessed a Catholic parade of some sort. I wasn’t a very religious person at the time and the scene I’m going to describe didn’t seem odd at time and I had more important things on my mind. But, as I look back on it now, it was something I’ll question forever.

As I said there was a parade and the statue of Mary on a platform was being carried by, I’m assuming 4 alter boys, but as the statue of Mary passed by, the people in the crowd would drop to their knees. I couldn’t see exactly what they were doing, but looking back, it seems they were worshipping this idol of Mary!

 

Pastor Larry and Scott:
According to Jesus own words the relationship between the disciple and Mary was a mother-son relationship. As I included in the Gospel quote, John was to care for her in his own household as his own mother and he her son. This goes beyond a physical care relationship, and was specifically not a brother-sister relationship.

The Gospel tells of a faithful disciple at the foot of the cross and his relationship to Jesus Christ and His mother.

John 19:26
When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He *said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"

John 19:27
Then He *said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

The modern day Protestant interpretation that the proper relationship would have been as any other “sister in Christ” is contrary to the Gospel. Jesus would have not said what He said, and would have told John to care for His mother until her death. Jesus knew of His upcoming death in advance and could have planned any matter of fact details of her care beforehand. Jesus words here are the Gospel. John is the beloved disciple at the foot of the cross. As Jesus’ brother and Mary’s son, John is also our brother and Mary is also our mother. The terms mother and brother have a special meaning to Jesus Christ which Jesus has explained. According the Gospel anyone who hears the word of God and does it enter this relationship….this is a spiritual relationship not just a physical relationship.

Do you deny that Mary became John’s mother? “Behold, your mother!”

Do you deny that John became Mary’s son? “Woman, behold, your son!”

Do you deny that Jesus' brothers and sisters are our brothers and sisters?

Jesus’ mother is our mother if we are his brothers and sisters. We who belong to Him have heard the word of God and do it just as Mary did, and just as John did. We are to be like the beloved disciple at the foot of the cross.

God Bless

[ November 06, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

But the point I made was that it was a relationship between John and Mary, not between Mary and the many other followers there. It was a relationship for the specific purpose of physical care, as the tradition would have necessitated.

There is nothing here to indicate that Christ intended anyone other than John to have this kind of relationahip with Mary. Therefore, this passage cannot be used to substantiate your claim.

The RCC interpretation of a greater relationship with all believers is not even found in the text, not even remotely in the text. You have not taken Mary into your house to care for her. Jesus did not tell anyone other than John to do that.

Remember that his disciples and followers did not even think he was going to die.

We must remember that you and your church says that. Jesus did not say that.

She became his mother in the sense that he was to care for her.

See above. Both of these are verified by understanding the words of the text in light of the first century tradition. It is the only way to explain "He took her into his house."

I can't comment on their spiritual condition. If they were believers in Christ, then yes. John 7:5 tells us that his brothers did not believe him at that time.

Scripture never even remotely teaches this. You are drawing a major doctrine from 2 verses that you have not even adequately dealt with. To say these verses mean something is one thing. To demonstrate that they mean that is something entirely different. You have done the former. You have not done the latter.

 

Pastor Larry:

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 8:21
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Mark 3:35
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Without Jesus teaching in the Gospel of who his mother and brothers and sisters are it is pointless to go on.

God Bless

 

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 8:21
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Mark 3:35
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Without Jesus teaching in the Gospel of who his mother and brothers and sisters are it is pointless to go on.

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Very nice bait and switch ... Why change topics??? You can't just willy-nilly go to passages that contain the same words and pretend they refer to the same thing. I was referring to the passage you brought up that speaks of the issue of John and Mary at the cross. The passage you refer to here is completely unrelated both in context and meaning.

You can be the mother of God if you do his will. Do you really think you can be Mary?? Or is there something else at stake here?? Obviously the latter ... Your method of Bible study in this thread is lacking consistency and context.

Quite clearly, the passages you quote above are unrelated to the topic at hand, and specifically to the issue of John and Mary. Let's try to keep things somewhat unmuddied.

 

Pastor Larry,

I think your thoughts in your post were true to Scriptural truth. Not more than the Word teaches and not less than . . .

We are not told but some of us think that Joseph might have died before Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. Thus the special care that Mary would not only need but apparently welcomed.

 

Pastor Larry:

The Gospel tells us who Jesus' mother, brothers, and sisters are. Jesus makes a lesson of it. There is no need to disregard Jesus explanation. It has a direct bearing on just what we are talking about. Jesus tells us that this relationship is spiritual and not just physical. "Behold your mother!" must be taken in the context that Jesus has taught his disciples this relationship means.

God Bless

 

Matthew 12:46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You."
48But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

Luke 8:19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20And it was told Him by some, who said, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You."
21But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

Mark 3:31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You."
33But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?" 34And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 35For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."

In context, Mat 12, Luke 8, and Mark 3 all have Jesus declaring that those around Him were His family, not Mary and her children who were desiring to see Him.

So in the very context of the proof texts you gave, your conclusion is contradicted. Mary's only means of salvation was the same as those who were surrounding Jesus.

Mary had no special spiritual position with Christ much less over Christ or equal to Christ. This was a normal physical/emotional/spiritual relationship between a human mother and her physical child. In a very normal human customary sense, Jesus was looking out for Mary's welfare by assigning John as her guardian.

 

Scott:

The context of Mat 12, luke 8, and Mark 3 in no way excludes Mary. As a matter of fact “mother” is used singularly because Jesus is showing he has one mother but many brothers and sisters. We can all be included as a brother and sister but only Mary can be Jesus Christ’s mother. I can not be Jesus Christ’s "mother" and neither can you. God already pick Mary out for that job, and she responded, "Be it done unto me according to your word."

Jesus explained his spiritual relationship with Mary in the gospel. She is His mother because she heard the word of God and did it, not mearly because she gave him birth. Any mere assignment of “guardian” could have been done without making John, Mary’s “son”. “Woman, behold your son!” Mary had close relatives who could have cared for her if this was mearly of matter of her having a “guardian”. Jesus could have said, "John take care of Mary". He didn't. Mary became John's mother. John became Mary's son. We are all spiritually related if we belong to Jesus Christ.

Jesus is our brother.

We are each other's brother and sisters if we belong to Him.

His Father is our Father.

His mother is our mother.

These are spiritual relationships and more real and important than any physical blood relationships.

John would have understood, the context of "Behold your mother!" Mary would have understood the context of "Behold your son!"
Jesus had been teaching them all along how these relationships work in the Kingdom of God...which started here on earth at the foot of the cross.

God Bless

 

The context of Mat 12, luke 8, and Mark 3 in no way excludes Mary. As a matter of fact “mother” is used singularly because Jesus is showing he has one mother but many brothers and sisters. We can all be included as a brother and sister but only Mary can be Jesus Christ’s mother. I can not be Jesus Christ’s "mother" and neither can you. God already pick Mary out for that job, and she responded, "Be it done unto me according to your word."</font>[/QUOTE] Not so. No one has more than one mother. For Christ to have looked around and said "these are my mothers" would have been silly and would not have followed the nature of the report he received.

Mary was not included in the group he declared as His brothers and mother. It was the group around Him. Mary remained outside at that point. The spiritual relationship between believers supercedes the natural relationship between family members. This was what Jesus was teaching here.

No more so than anyone who was in the place where Jesus made His declaration. You cannot put Mary in that place for the context clearly establishes that she was outside, wanting in.

True. So Mary is my sister.

Yes. By spiritual adoption. Plainly taught in scripture.

Yes. Again by spiritual adoption according to scripture.

No. The only scripture you have is that which you have cited and you have foisted an injurous interpretation on it. The text simply doesn't say that she is our spiritual mother in any way shape or form. It establishes a familial relationship between all believers.

Not as established by scripture.

And this is exactly the source of my commentary about John's guardianship over Mary.

Adult sons, charged with the care of their elderly mothers remained the spiritual head of the household. When Jesus appointed this relationship between John and Mary, it was not one of a mother and a subordinate child but rather between a head of household and a widowed mother. If anything, Mary was made spiritually subordinate to John- not the other way around.