1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does The New Testament Teach Irresistible Grace?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Martin, Jul 16, 2005.

Top Posters
Page 4 of 8
  1. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wes, Outwest said:
    The "gift" in Eph 2:8,9 is "being save".

    ==Can you really limit the term "gift" that much? In the grammer of the text I don't see that happening. Please support your claim.

    Martin.
     
    #61 Martin, Jul 17, 2005
  2. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wes, Outwest said:
    All Faith whether 'saving or not' comes from within the man.

    ==Scripture?

    How do you understand your belief in the light of Jesus' words in John 6?


    Martin.
     
    #62 Martin, Jul 17, 2005
  3. Martin

    Martin Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wes, Outwest said: (Ref Jn 6:37)
    God reveals to no man, those who will have faith in His son Jesus. I cannot answer your question and neither can you, so why do you ask it? There is no answer among men!

    ==Who will have faith is a question I can answer. Why? Because Jesus gave us the answer.

    The answer is all that the Father gives to Jesus (Jn 6:37).
    _____________________________________

    You quoted:
    John 6:40. It is my Father's will that whoever sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and that I should raise that person up on the last day.

    ==That is perfectly true. However you missed two very important Scriptures. John 6:37 and 44. These verses tell us that only those the Father has given to the Son, whom the Father draws to the Son, will come to the Son (ie..believe) and be raised on the last day. That is the point your position is failing to take into account.
    __________________________________________

    You quoted:
    John 6:51. I am the living bread which has come down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I shall give is my flesh, for the life of the world."

    ==Who is the anyone who will eat? Those the Father gives Him (Jn 6:37).

    ______________________________________

    You quoted:
    John 6:43. Jesus said in reply to them, "Stop complaining to each other. 44. `No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets: They will all be taught by God; everyone who has listened to the Father, and learnt from him, comes to me. 46. Not that anybody has seen the Father, except him who has his being from God: he has seen the Father. 47. In all truth I tell you, everyone who believes has eternal life.

    ==Who is it who listens to the Father in verse 45? Who is it who comes to Jesus? Who is it that believes? Those the Father gives to the Son. You can't overlook at verse. None of the verses you are quoting change anything. I think I even answered you objection in my original post.

    _____________________________________

    You said:
    If Grace were irresistible, Salvation would be universal and inescapeable.

    I replied:
    ==That is a strawman argument (see above).

    You said:
    NO strawman. Pure reasoning!

    ==Right! Reasoning apart from Scripture (ie..strawman). Scripture teaches that all the Father gives to the Son will believe (come to Jesus, be drawn to Him, will follow Him, etc). It does not teach that all will believe, and it does not teach that all are given to the Son by the Father. Therefore you assertion above is not reasoning from Scripture and is a strawman argument against this truth.
    ___________________________________

    You said:
    If grace were irresistible and if grace saves (ephesians 2:8,9), and Grace is upon all of the creation because it comes from the creator. Then It is universal, and inescapable. No created being can escape it. NO STRAWMAN!

    ==Where does Scripture say that all have been given to the Son by the Father? Where? Where does it say that all have by saved by grace? Where?

    I submit to you that it says that no place. Therefore your argument is a strawman. You are debating a position that I have not put forward.
    ____________________________________

    You said:
    I know you can't deal with that because you are calvinized.

    ==Well, you are arminianized.

    Is that really the direction you wish to take this discussion? If so I will stop now. I am not a Calvinist. Breaking news: Not everyone who believes in irresistable grace/election (sovereignty of God, etc) is a calvinist. Sorry.

    _______________________________________

    I would like to see how you deal with the verses you keep skipping over (Jn 6:37,44, etc).

    Martin.
     
    #63 Martin, Jul 17, 2005
  4. here now

    here now Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wes you said:

    Your honesty is severely lacking john boy! If you deal with your family with the same honesty, you will find yourself alone soon if not already.

    And then you said:

    The term family as I used it is generic...that is, NON SPECIFIC! The family is not identified.

    ************************************************
    I say:
    When you use the word your family, you made it VERY SPECIFIC. The family is identified.
     
    #64 here now, Jul 17, 2005
  5. OCC

    OCC Guest

    funny how they have nothing to say to you "herenow". crazy eh?
     
    #65 OCC, Jul 17, 2005
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I too have received the Christian faith. I received it the way all men who receive such faith receive it, through the Word of God. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I receive the Word of God! I have received this faith in my spirit, I am marked for eternity as having the same faith that Peter is speaking of.
     
    #66 Wes Outwest, Jul 17, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did Wes mean John's wife and children? or john's siblings, or john's parents, or johns church family, or johns work family, of johns tavern family? Which family did Wes mean? Or did wes mean all of them? You will never know because family as used is generic!
     
    #67 Wes Outwest, Jul 17, 2005
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Is there something wrong with your keyboard? :D

    some quick questions for someone to answer. If a governor grants a prisoner on death row a pardon prior to execution, would you say this is grace? Explain how the governor "gave" his grace, or "gave" his pardon to the prisoner? What did the governor have to do to pardon the prisoner? What did the prisoner to do to receive the pardon?
     
    #68 webdog, Jul 17, 2005
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    "it" seems pretty specific to me. Now what is the "it"? Grace cannot be given from one being to another, though it can be manifested in the one toward the other. Is it faith? The scriptures tell us quite clearly the faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We can receive the word of God, but we cannot receive faith because that comes from within. That leaves Salvation. Salvation is described in many other scriptures as the Gift of God to those who have faith in God.

    Grace? no!
    Faith? no!
    Salvation? YES!

    The gift in Ephesians 2:9,8, is Salvation!
     
    #69 Wes Outwest, Jul 17, 2005
  10. here now

    here now Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did Wes mean John's wife and children? or john's siblings, or john's parents, or johns church family, or johns work family, of johns tavern family? Which family did Wes mean? Or did wes mean all of them? You will never know because family as used is generic! </font>[/QUOTE]His family is HIS FAMILY it does NOT matter which branch of HIS FAMILY!

    You said what you said, now stop trying to back out by explaining it away.
     
    #70 here now, Jul 17, 2005
  11. OCC

    OCC Guest

    "His family is HIS FAMILY it does NOT matter which branch of HIS FAMILY!

    You said what you said, now stop trying to back out by explaining it away."

    [​IMG]
     
    #71 OCC, Jul 17, 2005
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are many many more scriptures I could post including the entire chapter of Hebrews 11. Needless to say EACH and every one of them indicate that Faith is of the man and is not given to man. Nearly all of them indicate that faith comes by hearing the word of God. That is, Man hears the word of God and through believing establishes faith in God.
     
    #72 Wes Outwest, Jul 17, 2005
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well shoot, King James, you wanna win this one? I resign! You win! Now are we even? Can you stop your revenge?
     
    #73 Wes Outwest, Jul 17, 2005
  14. OCC

    OCC Guest

    Wes...I never said that. I enjoy rustling your feathers and it is only done in fun. I do not wish any evil against you or anything. I don't want revenge. I just don't want to be shouted at. :D [​IMG] j/k
     
    #74 OCC, Jul 18, 2005
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can see that is not and apology or a call for peace. Just remember it was you false accusation that started this.

    I'm not shouting, only STATING!
     
    #75 Wes Outwest, Jul 18, 2005
  16. here now

    here now Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

    Who gives you the word of God?

    Who is the Word of God?

    Do you think it was by chance that you picked up the word of God?

    Why weren't you born among the ones who have never heard about the Word of God?

    Have you ever thought that He might have DRAWN you to the Word of God?

    Do you remember when you accepted Jesus(had faith in Him)?

    Are you sure that it wasn't Him who accepted you..drew you...chose you...elected you?

    You might say yea but at first I didn't accept Him I walked away. Then you might say then I decided to accept Him and to have faith.

    I'll ask again:
    Are you sure that it wasn't Him who accepted you..drew you...chose you...elected you?
     
    #76 here now, Jul 18, 2005
  17. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello webdog.
    No I just like saying the obvious. For it is by grace you have been saved... needs an answer especially as this is being denied and it does not get answered.
    No it might be due to political reasoning or mitigating circumstances.
    The governor should have taken the persons punishment. There can be no excusing the offence.
    Sign a piece of paper?
    Get a petition going. Find extenuating circumstances. But if a person is in prison for a debt he could not pay and that payment is made then the person is set free regardless of whether he wants that debt paid.

    How's that?

    john.
     
    #77 johnp., Jul 18, 2005
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    The governor should have taken the persons punishment. There can be no excusing the offence.
    []</font>[/QUOTE]sounds like what Christ did for our sin wages.
    sounds like grace to me [​IMG]

    In Christ...james
     
    #78 Jarthur001, Jul 18, 2005
  19. OCC

    OCC Guest

    I can see that is not and apology or a call for peace. Just remember it was you false accusation that started this.

    I'm not shouting, only STATING!     </font>[/QUOTE]I did nothing to warrant an apology to you Wes. What false accusation? :confused: :rolleyes:

    Well if you weren't shouting before you just did now. [​IMG] stop shouting dude...it's bad for our health.
     
    #79 OCC, Jul 18, 2005
  20. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello KJ.
    You do not want revenge...
    You do...

    john.
     
    #80 johnp., Jul 18, 2005
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 4 of 8
Loading...