Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

Some things are such common sense Scripture is not needed. You don't need Scripture to prove a combustion engine works, why 1 + 1 = 2, or how aerodynamics come about. Scripture tells us we are made in God's image. I believe that to be body (Christ) and Spirit (God the Father and Holy Spirit)
We are also told from Scripture to fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Everyone will be resurrected at some point.

Western thought?!? I'm not following. If our consciousness is not in our immaterial...and it's most definately not in our material...where is it?

 

This needs some psychology and the hypnosis.

Are you sure that you are in the state of unconsciousness when you sleep?

In Hypnosis, they believe there is a layer between the consciousness and unconsciousness which can be broken by the hypnosis.

But remember this, our souls will remember what we did with our bodies.

 

I think the burden of proof would lie on you to show that.

 

Scripture states that "the PERSON" is dormant - sleeps in death

"Those WHO have fallen asleep" 1Thess 4.

"Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.

"We shall not all SLEEP but we shall all be changed" 1Cor 15.

But at the same time we are never told that the "body sleeps" in death - rather the body is "this decaying tent" 2Cor 5 that is being destroyed. In 1cor 15 we are told that that which you sow is not what you reap it dies and goes into the ground.

 

There is nothing circular about it, Paul presents it that way, I don't construct the argument that way. Secondly, you appeal to the plausible rather than what is plain in the text. A destructive practice for sound reasoning but even more so, disingenuous regarding the claim of wanting to know the truth. When the truth is plain and the text is plain you ignore it and reach for the plausible.

No it doesn't mean you would be magically present at Princeton. However, the physical laws of movement here on earth and the supernatural order of the soul/spirit after death are not identical at all, quite obviously, so your analogy fails immediately. The passage makes it clear that when a believer CAN BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY (he is referring to death of course)...and Paul makes it contextually obvious that it is with the Lord. Paul makes it clear that we can be absent from the body and even if we weren't with the Lord we are still absent from the body. In Paul's case he places us in the presence of the LORD, while absent from the body. SO AGAIN, are you suggesting God, through Paul, is teaching us that when we are PRESENT with the LORD and absent from the body there is no consciousness? IS THIS REALLY what you expect someone to believe from this passage?

 

If the text presents truth, and in comparison with other Scriptures does not contradict the rest of the Bible, then it needs to be believed. The problem is one of belief. Instead of accepting your interpretation, isolated from the rest of the Bible, which does not agree with this text, you choose to disbelieve the Scripture. The meaning has been given. It is in harmony with the rest of Scripture. Now it is up to you whether or not to accept it.

 

Good point. The Biblical case is that the spirit is not active, not conscious apart from the body. As long as the person is in the dormant sleep state of death "God is NOT the god of the dead" Matt 22 accordng to Christ - if you view that dead person APART from the future resurrection.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Christ yielded his (human) spirit to God.
If Christ was at any time in history unconscious, then Christ (God) was dead. You have a problem houston.

 

I never claim that people are God. I maintain that Christ alone was in that role.

How about you?

 

Christ was totally man and totally God at the same time. His sufferings on the cross were the sufferings of a man. Thus he could say: "My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me."
And again: Into thy hands I commend my spirit.
He was speaking of his human spirit, that same spirit that every man has. And every believer will one day give up his spirit to God as Christ did. Christ did not go into a sleep. There is no soul sleep with Christ. He is not unconscious, nor did remain so until his resurrection. He was very much alive. His spirit was alive and active before the resurrection, as will be every believer's before the resurrection. Christ is our example. Your theory does not fit. If you force your theory into Scripture you must declare that God died.
It is the only logical conclusion that one can come to. How could God lose consciousness? Absurd!

 

Christ walked on water - we don't.

Christ was transfigured in Matt 17 -- that does not happen to us when we go to the top of a mountain.

Christ was God to the point that he could pay for the debt owed by all the sins for all the world -- not other humans.

I am not making claims about the "nature of the God-man in death while in the tomb".

Those who view themselves as being equal with God and not really dying are making an argument similar to "you shall not surely die... you will be like god".

I have already read about the problems with that doctrine in Genesis 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You really do have a problem here don't you. At times, in the ministry of Christ, He chose to do miracles to substantiate his claim of deity. The greatest claim to deity lie in His resurrection. No other religious leader then, before then, or since then, has ever been able to duplicate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our entire faith is founded upon the cornerstone of the resurrection.
However, one of the great reasons why Christ could die for our sins is that he was a man, not just any man, but a perfect man free from all sin. His divinity did not die. He died in his humanity. It was He in his humanity that died. He could have called 12 legions of angels, he said. But he didn't. He could have called fire down from heaven. But he didn't. He laid aside all his divine powers and suffered as a man would suffer. Thus as a man he committed his spirit to the Father. That is what He says. We must take the Scripture at face value or not take it at all.
Thus if Christ committed his spirit into the hands of the Father, and was alive forevermore; the same can be said of every believer when they die. They commit their spirits to the Lord, and are alive forever more. They do not sleep. Further evidence is given here.

Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
--Why did Stephen see Jesus "standing" on the right hand of God. We are told elsewhere that he sits on the right hand of God. Why was he standing. He was standing with outstretched hands welcoming Stephen's spirit home into heaven. Stephen's body was stoned and left for dead. But Stephen himself (his spirit) went straight to be with the Lord. One can deduce nothing else but that conclusion from this passage.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
--Why would he pray this prayer if he knew it would not be answered? All the believers at that time had the expectation that their spirit at the time of death would go straight to heaven. There was Jesus waiting to receive his spirit. And there was Stephen asking Jesus to receive his spirit. Nothing could be any clearer. There is no soul sleep. The spirit doesn't sleep. It goes straight to heaven to be with Lord.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
--What fell asleep? His body fell asleep. Stephen went to be with the Lord, as has already been demonstrated.

 

Kind of hard to believe that you have found something that we actually agree in one of your recent posts.

Nice to see that now and then.

Although this is pure speculation and though I am inclined to agree with it -- it is not scripture.

But it makes a good story -- one that even I am inclined to agree with.

Indeed - Eccles 12:8 states that the spirit of all mankind goes back to God "who gave it" at death.

This is the dormant state for mankind in death.

In that Dormant state as Christ said in Matt 22 "God is NOT the god of the dead" and this is because the dead do not continue on in a relationship with God during death. Rather all their worship/memory/thought/praise relationship activities cease according to scripture.

But I do not know what the "God part" is doing while that human part is dormant for a God-man and never claimed knowledge of "that story" as my doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Bible does not say -- but I can imagine a "good story coming"

When you say "left for dead" are you arguing that careful review of Stephen's body would have revealed that instead of decaying and rotting in the grave - he was just sleeping?

Only in the Eccl 12:8 sense that the spirits of all the dead "return to God who gave it" at death - but in the same dormant state that scripture states so that as Christ said "God is not the god of the dead" Matt 22.

He had to have known that scripture states that the spirit of man goes back to God at death.

I don't think this was in doubt.


Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, HE fell asleep.

not "IT fell asleep".


What fell asleep?

His body was dead NOT asleep.
The closest possible review of the state of his decaying corpse would NOT show his body to be SLEEPING - but decaying and dead.

It would only be the spirit of Stephen that went into a dormant state - the Bible calls sleep for a spirit in the state of death.

in Christ,

Bob