1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Don’t Be A Fundamentalist (Calvinist Or Otherwise)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,813
    Likes Received:
    1,770
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Heresy can be what you believe, but perhaps just as often, heresy is the weight you give an issue you believe. “Fundamentalism” might be understood, in part, as too much weight given to certain aspects of Christian doctrine or practice (the word fundamentalism, historically, doesn’t mean that, but in common parlance that is how it might be understood). Some people give such enormous weight to minor issues that the gospel itself is obscured.

    Calvinism is one such issue. We only have so much “bandwidth” as a church, so I choose rather to be known for the gospel than for a tough stance on particulars of Calvinism that are less important than the heart of the message.

    So at The Summit Church, I often say, “Calvinism is not an issue to me until it becomes one to you. But when it becomes one to you, it becomes one to me… and I’ll probably take whatever side you are not.” What someone believes about the finer points of Calvinism is not usually the issue; it’s how they believe it. We may have trouble achieving absolute clarity together on every one of the “five points,” but we can be absolutely clear on the fact that the Bible condemns a divisive and uncharitable spirit over something about which gospel-loving Christians have historically had trouble finding complete agreement.

    In Martin Luther’s preface to his Commentary to the Romans, he pointed out that God unfolded the doctrines of election in Romans 9, not Romans 1. Luther says that the doctrine of election was intended to explain why Romans 1–8 worked like they did, not function as the only gateway for believing the gospel of Romans 1–8. Many Calvinists have, practically speaking, moved the doctrine of election from Romans 9 to Romans 1, making it the only door through which you can really believe the gospel.

    Don’t hear me encouraging some kind of doctrinal reductionism. We should think deeply about election, as with all great biblical truths, and form deep convictions about it. Everything in the Bible is important, especially things that relate to salvation and evangelism. I have my own convictions. But we must learn to be comfortable with certain scriptural tensions, and live with grace and freedom in some places God has not bestowed clarity to the degree we’d prefer. As Alister McGrath says, the ability to live within scriptural tensions is a sign of maturity, not immaturity.

    Supposedly Deuteronomy 29:29 was John Calvin’s favorite verse:

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of the law.

    According to that verse, God has chosen to keep certain truths hidden from us. Most systematic theologians (myself included) don’t like the concept of “hidden things.” As a guy who minored in math in college, I want to resolve all tensions, remove all mysteries, and try to bring every hidden thing to light. Moses prophesies our failure, and tells us sometimes we need to rest content with the revelation we have, going no farther than God has gone, which can mean pulling back from putting as fine a point on something–particularly as it relates to setting boundaries for fellowship–as we might typically like.

    Furthermore, we should never allow our theological system to ignore, or explain away, the plain teaching of certain segments of Scripture. God gave us every word of the Bible in exactly the form he wanted us to have it. If God had wanted us to value a theological system more than the Bible, then he would have spelled out that system in greater detail for us.

    Charles Spurgeon, a confessedly Calvinistic preacher, once remarked after reading Romans 10:13, “Dear me! ‘Whosoever shall call…’ Whosoever. Why, that is a Methodist word, is it not?” At this point, many Calvinists would have gone on to explain why that verse doesn’t really mean what it looks like it says. But Spurgeon went on to say, “The whole of truth is neither here nor there, neither in this system nor that. Be it ours to know what is scriptural in all systems and to receive it.”

    Don't Be A Fundamentalist (Calvinist Or Otherwise) – Summit Life with J.D. Greear
     
  2. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,290
    Likes Received:
    154
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you are nott a fundamentalist you are not a Christian. Fundamentalist means you believe the bible is the complete word of God regardless what American FBs say.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,813
    Likes Received:
    1,770
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This reply takes one word from the op and hyper focuses on it divorced from the intent. It also makes it appear that the response was given without actually reading the op, therefore it is off topic.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    25,101
    Likes Received:
    571
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You can believe that the Bible is the complete word of God - and still NOT be a (born-again) Christian - or a fundamentalist.

    So lets talk about fundamentalist - what doctrines make you or keep you from being one?


    Rev Mitchell - I trust I am not hijacking your thread.
     
  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    334
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I read this earlier today....this was my reply to a FB Friend

    Good article. Genuine Christian Unity, centering itself on Christ as Savior and Lord and the Truths of the Gospel, will generate healthy Christian Fellowship that crosses denominational borders. I believe the mentality that says, "our local group/fellowship/circle/etc. has a flawless and perfect understanding of God's Truth" and distinguishes itself between "us and them" are common traits of a cult.

    I understand his point of not being a doctrinal relativist and, at the same time, showing maturity in extending Christian love and fellowship to other assemblies. Yes, it is possible to have convictions about the "non-essentials" (not everything is doctrinally essential to Christian fellowship) and still learn and grow from one another. I believe Ephesians 4 is spoken about for the Church at-large:

    15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

    Every brother and sister in Christ has a duty to pour into other brothers and sisters the Truth and Love of Christ...We are called to exhort and edify one another through the Grace of God Given to Us. To God alone be the Glory through Jesus Christ our Lord, in the Church!
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    15,333
    Likes Received:
    1,237
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Revmitchell,


     
  7. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    334
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ......J. D. Greer is a Calvinist.....

    You clearly read this with presuppositions and a bias, to the point it skewed your comprehension. This is very telling.
     
    #7 JonShaff, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,597
    Likes Received:
    243
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wouldn't "Don't Be a Dogmatist (Calvinist or Otherwise)" be a better title, for what Greear is struggling to communicate?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    334
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You're probably correct here. He fumbles around with the word "Fundamentalist" right off the bat--then defines it the way he'd like to.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    15,333
    Likes Received:
    1,237
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not care what he is.....The attack is the same no matter what pov it comes from.....it is misguided.... it does more harm than good...Looking at his website....I can see he is not what you suggest...but other....Not helpful at all...
     
    #10 Iconoclast, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,049
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Revmitchel is using the contemporary, revisionist definition of the term. He made that pretty clear in his initial post.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    15,333
    Likes Received:
    1,237
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is a clue...Jon...if Calvinistic preaching were going on....what is on that website would not be going on.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,813
    Likes Received:
    1,770
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Revmithcell using using any term as I did not write the op. But then you already knew that didn't you.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    738
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Fundamentalism would be you believing just like me, because I am right in my Biblical interpretation.
    Seriously, that's what it boils down to.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    334
    Faith:
    Baptist
    His point was that whether you're calvinist or not, Christians should fellowship and not be such fundamentalist, separationists.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    551
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, he is. I went to hear him preacher almost 20 years ago.

    But the OP wasn't by Pastor Greer. It was done by a much younger non-Cal by the name of J.D. Greear.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    334
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh forgive me, J. D. Greear.


    Maybe I misunderstood...The entire article, for me, made it seem as though he was a Calvinist trying to focus on a harmony within the Church.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,290
    Likes Received:
    154
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks.

    On the TV they speak of charismatic televangelists as "Christian Fundamentalists", so I guess that is a contemporary definition.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    15,333
    Likes Received:
    1,237
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvinists welcome all into the fellowship Jon.They do not do as the fundamentalist do . THEY preach and teach expositionally and any separation that takes place is the non calls depart if they cannot welcome the teaching, or they learn quietly with an occasional question.
    It is not as though every lesson is on the 5 pts.
    Once people get it right...the teaching deals more with sanctification and such things.
     
  20. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    334
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I may have misunderstood the article...I apologize for my rash comments.

    Here was another article...


    "Pastor J.D., Are You a Calvinist?" – Summit Life with J.D. Greear
     
Loading...