Drawing and John 6

Unregenerate man can seek God, and it is shown in the scriptures. The young rich ruler was not saved, yet he ran to Jesus (great desire), he kneeled to Jesus (respect) and asked how to be saved. He went away unsaved, but he had a sincere desire to be saved. In fact, we do not know what became of this man, he may have been saved later.

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

So, now I have shown you two examples from scripture that contradict the Calvinist concept of total depravity. This young man sincerely wanted to know how to be saved, he had desire. And Cain could have done right, he was not utterly enslaved to do wrong.

And you still do not get that a person cannot have a free will and be enslaved to only making one choice, this is an illogical impossibility.

You simply cannot understand this because you have your Calvinist shades on.

 

I don't know where you have been, I have been debating this subject with Calvinists for months on end. I understand quite well what Calvinists believe, they all believe something different, no two agree with each other. Even you have said you do not believe in some aspects of Calvinism.

What you do not get is that your thinking process has been colored by Calvinist doctrine. I showed where Cain could obey God if he wanted to. But you believe he was unwilling because he was unwilling (circular reasoning). You just can't grasp that he was really and truly able to make a choice and that God himself confirmed this by his own word.

And the rich young ruler was serious, why do you think he went away very sorrowful? He was not joking around.

I have showed pictures of Billy Graham campaigns. Thousands would come, nobody forced them to come. Many did receive Christ, many did not. Some simply cannot give up certain sins to accept Christ, they want to go on drinking or taking drugs, or fornication they are involved in, or making riches illegally. They know they will have to give this up for Christ.

But they can make the choice if they want to. It is absurd to argue that men do not have free will because it is obvious to everyone. We all know that we can make any choice we want to. I have never been forced to sin, I could have always done the right thing and I know it. Unregenerate men are just the same. They know the difference between right and wrong and have the power to make a choice.

To believe Calvinism one has to deny reality.

 

The Rich young Ruler is certainly not an example for the position you are trying to support so desperately.

However, he is an example of the typical sinner who seeks God only and always according to his own way rather than God's way.

For example notice the use of the term "good" by the Rich young Ruler. The Greek term "agathos" has the idea of "inherent goodness." Notice how he placed himself on an EQUAL level with Christ in regard to inherent goodness. "good Master.....what good thing can I do. He assumed that he had the inherent ability to do "good" as the "good" Master.

Notice that Jesus focused in on his use of the term "good" - "Why callest thou me good?" Wasn't Jesus "good"? Certainly he was but not in the sense that the Rich Ruler was applying it. He was applying it equally to himself as to Christ claiming the same inherent ability to do good.

Jesus countered this EQUALITY of goodness by saying "there is NONE good but one and that is God." Was Jesus disclaiming to be God? No! He was disclaiming that the young ruler had the inherent ability to do good and therefore he was denying that man has inherent goodness.

However, to drive this point home, Jesus continued to tell him if he would have eternal life by goodness than what saith the Law? The ruler claims he had ketp all of them - this demonstrates he has no concept of what the Law requires to be called "good." Jesus tells him if he wants to be "perfect" and that is what the law requires, then sell all he has and give to poor and follow him. This is what the Law demands - total sell out for God and love your brother as yourself and then complete submission. This is God's way.

The rich man did not SEEK after God, God's way. This ruler demonstrates Romans 8:7 fully. This man was at enmity with God and demonstrated it by refusal to submit to the law's demands. Here the best of men are men at best and have no ability to seek God by God's way. No man is "good" in God's sight and no man is capable to be good and no man truly seeks God according to God's way - it is "IMPOSSIBLE" because they are inherently evil rather than good.

This is not an example for your point at all. It is a glaring example that contradicts your position.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

Here is what I posted about this subject in another forum:


Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

The word for draw (helkuw) always indicates an effectual action. Something is not "drawn" unless the actor moved the object from point A to point B as intended.

In the case of John 21:6, it says that the disciples were "NOT ABLE to draw" the net.

Q. Did they exert force?
A. Yes.

Q. Did the net go where they intended?
A. No.

Q. Did they still "draw" the net?
A. No.

Q. What did they actually do?
A. They tried to draw the net.

Q. What would have happened if they had actually drawn the net?
A. The net would have been pulled into the boat. It would have gone where intended.

According to Wilderness Voice's logic, the verse really should have said "They cast therefore, and now they drew the net, but it would not come for the multitude of fishes."

If someone draws something, by definition, it goes from point A to point B.
If someone exerts an action, but the result is not as intended, it is referred to as "try to draw" or "unable to draw."

If I say that I punched something, I actually swung my fist and connected with it. If this did not actually happen as described, then I "tried to punch" or was "unable to punch." The same applies to draw.

 

In all humility, but also honesty. If calvinism (doctrines of grace, historical baptists) etc is taken to its logical conclusion, then God must in fact be the author and creator of evil, not simply the creator for the capacity of evil. If I understand my calvinst brothers and their definition of God's sovereingty, then that is the only conclusion that can be reached. Being a non-calvinist myself, I am often "assaulted" and assailed with claims that I do not believe God is sovereign at all simply because I see the expression of God's sovereignty differently than many calvinists. In reality, all of us are simply beggars trying to show another beggar where to get a meal.

 

Let's not forget this gem about the Crucifixion of Jesus:

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

These people all FREELY CHOSE to do what they did to Jesus, yet this was all what God's counsel "determined before" (προωρισεν, "pre-ordered") to be done.

 

In John 6:29-65 "coming" to Christ is a metaphor for believing in Christ. John 6:37 makes it clear that the cause for "coming" originates with the act of being given to the Son by the Father. It does not originate with the truth but with being given.

ALL that the Father gives come to the Son. NONE fail to come to the Son. NONE are lost. Now either all mankind was given and therefore all mankind do come and none will be lost = universal salvation OR God has chosen a people to give to His Son and ALL those given to His Son for that purpose will come and will be saved and not one given shall be lost.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." - Jn. 6:37

In John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In addition to being given by the Father in verse 37, ALL who come must be drawn by the Father as well or they will not come. EVERY SINGLE ONE the father draws comes to the Son as the latter part of verse 44 demands that not one who is drawn fails to come. Therefore, "all men" in John 12 refers to "all kinds and classes" included in all those given to Christ by the Father. Gentiles are in view in John 12 coming to Christ.

NONE drawn by the Father fail to come as the last sentence in verse 44 demands. Also this drawing power is an INTERNAL work performed by God in ALL given and drawn to the Son by the Father as verses 45-46 clearly teach. "EVERYONE" receiving this internal work by the Father comes to the Son.

In John 6:64-65 "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Those described in verse 64 are professed "disciples" of Christ who "followed him no more." The reason they did not believe in him is clearly stated in verse 65. The word "therefore I said unto you" refers back to verse 44. However, Jesus replaces the word "draw" in verse 44 with the words "given unto him" by the Father in verse 65. Saving faith is "given unto him of my Father." Therefore, believing in Christ is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29) and the "gift" of God (Eph. 2:8). Unbelief and unwillingness to come to Christ is natural.

The ONLY ones who will come to Christ are ALL those the Father gives to Christ for that very purpose (Jn. 17:2). The ONLY ones that come to Christ are ALL those the Father draws. In this act of drawing, the Father "works in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure" thus producing a beleiving heart in Christ.

This inward work of the Father is the effectual power of the Holy Spirit producing a NEW heart because their old heart is incapable of spiritual perception, spiritual hearing, spiritual seeing and thus incapable of DESIRING to come to Christ.


Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. - Deut. 29:4

The "heart" is inclusive of both your intellect and desires. The unregenerate man has NO DESIRE to seek God and therefore WILL NOT CHOOSE to do so of his own free choice. God must give him a NEW HEART. It is with this new heart "with the heart man believeth"

This new believing heart is a creative act of God (Eph. 2:10). The gospel is empowered by God as His creative word to produce inward light and faith in Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6).

The gospel truth has no power to save anyone. You can preach it until your blue in the face and none will be saved if it comes in "word only" (1 Thes. 4-5).
God gives a people to His son to save and this is election:

" Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." 1 Thes. 1:4

How can you know your election by God? You know it by the Father effectually drawing you by empowering the gospel as His creative word:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake." - 1 Thes. 1:5

As Paul says "WHEN IT PLEASED GOD who separated me from my mother's womb and called me by his grace...."

The same God who effectually gave you physical life and brought you safe out of your mother's womb also effectually called you by his grace to spiritual life manifested by coming to Christ in faith.

Coming to the Father does not precede being drawn and drawn does not precede being given by the Father to the Son and ALL that come were ALL that were drawn and ALL that were drawn were ALL that were given. He did not lose one "of all" in verse 37a. He did not lose one of "all" in verse 44b and so Jesus says in John 6:39:

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

Well, the scriptures contradict your personal belief, they say God cannot lie.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Your concept of God is not much different than the view the Greeks held about their false gods, that they are powerful beings, but not much different than sinful men morally.

And to believe God could lie is to believe there is an absolute greater than God. If God could say two plus two equals five, which would be an error and a lie, then there is an absolute law greater than God himself.

No, God cannot lie because he is absolute. He cannot just do anything he pleases, he can not be unfaithful or deny himself.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Here is another scripture that says God "cannot" do something.

You might want to rethink your concept of God.

 

I disagree. You weren't just walking around completely ignorant of the gospel and then were zapped or regenerated with this knowledge. There is no way you, or I, or anyone else would come to Jesus unless we first heard of Jesus through the scriptures.

Jesus said those who have heard and learned from the Father come to him. But God did not limit this revelation to only a few select men, all men have the scriptures and the truth available to them, and if they choose to heed the scriptures and sincerely listen to God's word can come to Christ.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

So, no man can come to Christ unless the Father reveals Christ through the scriptures. This is what Paul said in Romans 10.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

This is a question Paul asked with a self-evident answer. It is impossible to believe on Jesus unless you have first heard of him. And you cannot hear of Jesus unless you read the scriptures, or hear someone preach Jesus from the scriptures.

No man can claim he came to God on his own, Jesus had to be revealed to him first by the Father through the scriptures.

 

The nature of God is what limits Him. The nature of any being determines His DESIRES. God has an IMMUTABLE HOLY and RIGHTEOUS nature and therefore it is not possible for Him to have unholy or unrighteous desires.

This same principle governs the will of man as well. Man is born with an UNHOLY and UNRIGHTOUS nature and therefore it is not possible for him to have holy or righteous desires (Rom. 8:7).

Both God and man are limited by their natures. Neither are free to choose contrary to their nature. Their FREEDOM of choice is a FREEDOM to exercise their will within their NATURES not contrary to their natures.

Sin entered the human race through GOOD desires being perverted. Eve was DECEIVED into believing what she did was "GOOD." Adam was not deceived but willfully chose to die with Eve then live without her. God had designed Eve to be the object of Adam's love and committment (Gen. 2:31) but in subordination to love for God. Sin entered into Satan throught the GOOD desire to be LIKE GOD. However, desire to be LIKE GOD turned into the desire to receive the glory like God.

Man was made "upright" but he was not made with an immutable nature like God so that free will could be exercised rather than controlled by an immutable nature. The very creation of a being with free agency created the potential of sin. Sin entered into the creation of God through the distortion of GOOD desires.

Fallen man has an immutable nature opposite to God's immutable nature that provides the boundary of freedom of choice. They are both free to choose within the boundary lines of their own nature. God's nature is immutably holy and righteous so He NEVER DESIRES unholy and unrighteousness and therefore NEVER CHOOSES to be or do unholy and unrighteousness (Mal. 3:6). Fallen man is immutably unholy and unrighteous (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14) so he NEVER DESIRES holiness and righteousness (Rom. 3:9-11) and therefore NEVER CHOOSES to be or do holy and righteous things.

It takes a CREATIVE act of God to change the nature of man (Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor 5:17; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; Deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26-27) so that he DESIRES to choose to be holy and righteous or do that which is holy and righteous.

The non-elect are simply all those whom God simply left to their own FREE CHOICE in keeping with their own fallen and immutable sinful nature to continue in their hatred and rejection and resistance to God in spite of light of nature, conscience and preaching of the gospel.

The elect are those whom God chose to give to the Son and draw to the Son by doing an INTERNAL and CREATIVE work of God purely by grace to change their want to or desires from unholiness/unrighteousness to holy and righteous choices or to say it as Paul says it:

"Being confident of this very thing, He that hath begun a good work IN YOU will perform it unto that day..........For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure." - Philip. 1:6; 2:13

"Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.......A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." - Deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26-27

In the mean time, all the evil in the world originates from the fallen natures of men and demons and God allows all the evil that exists in this world as just consequences for sin and He restrains all evil that will not be worked out eventually for His own glory and good for His people:

"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain...........For we know that ALL THINGS work together for the good of those who love God and who are THE CALLED according to HIS PURPOSE." - Psa. 76:10; Rom. 8:28

 

False. The scriptures do not declare man 100% evil. Man knows both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man knows the difference between good and evil, God said so himself. And in the next chapter God himself said that Cain had the ability and choice to either do good or evil.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Not only did God confirm that Cain had the ability to do either good or evil here, God said sin would desire Cain, but Cain would rule over sin. So, no man is utterly unable to do good as Calvinism teaches.

Calvinism proof texts certain verses that appear to say all men are 100% evil, and ignores those that show man has the ability to do some good.

When Moses and Joshua told the people to either choose God or choose against God, they knew exactly what they were saying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They really and truly had the ability to choose either good or evil.

Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

Calvinism would have you ignore verses like this where the word of God shows man has the ability to choose either good or evil.

 

I did not say that man does not KNOW good and evil. He knows and does evil anyway and that is what condemns him. What I said is that he is INCAPABLE of doing good (Rom. 8:7 "neither indeed can be").

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Cain had THE ABILITY to choose good. He had the RESPONSIBILITY but the ABILITY was no only lost in the fall but his nature has NO DESIRE to choose good.

God merely faced Cain with his RESPONSIBILITY. God told him what he MUST DO to be accepted. At no point did God say YOU HAVE THE ABILITY to do what is right.

The Apostle Paul is an INSPIRED man and you are an UNINSPIRED interpreter. I will take Paul's INSPIRED interpretation concerning the fallen nature of man or what Paul calls "the flesh"

1. He says it is at "enmity" with God and will not submit and "NEITHER INDEED CAN BE" - Rom. 8:7

2. He says there is NOTHING GOOD in the flesh and says it is dominated by the LAW OF SIN - Rom. 7:

3. He says it is incapable of understanding spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).

4. He says there is NONE that doeth good or seeketh God, NO, NOT ONE" - Rom. 3:10-22.

5. He says the lost man is DEAD spiritually - Eph. 2:1; 4:18

You are calling Paul a liar. You say there is something GOOD in the flesh. You say the lost man CAN do good, seek God, do righteousness. You deny he is DEAD spiritually but only sick and able to do spiritual things (Deut. 29:4).

What you fail to realize is that sin rendered them UNWILLING to do what they are RESPONSIBLE to do. They are accountable for their UNWILLINGNESS which is just an expression of their INABILITY to do what they are RESPONSIBLE to do as their INABILITY is what produces UNWILLINGNESS and both are due to their own sin for which they are accountable for and not God. God is just in calling them to repent even though He knows they have neither the willingness or the ability to repent. Such is the case with Cain.

 

I did not say that God does not use the gospel in the salvation of the elect as their very response to the gospel is proof they are God's elect (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

What I said, is that the elect believe the gospel because "EVERYONE" that God teaches comes to Christ (Jn. 6:44-45).

You refer to this teaching in John 6:45 but fail to recognize that "EVERYONE" who is taught thus by God is saved by God and NONE are lost and so that does demonstrate "this revelation to only a few select men" as NONE of those receiving that internal revelation are lost:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Follow the thinking provided by Christ in these two verses

1. NO MAN can come but those drawn
2. those drawn will be raised up - saved
3. All the Father teaches "EVERYONE" comes

This is exactly the same line of thinkin in verses 37-39

1. All given ALL come and NONE lost
2. of ALL given NOT ONE fails to come and not one is lost

Therefore, this must be restricted to only the elect or else you have universal salvation and hell is a monumental testimony against universalism.

 

You are correct with #1, but you err with both #2 and #3.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If you come to Christ, you were drawn. Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself.

But not all men who are drawn come. Some resist as Stephen said in Acts 7.

Not everyone that the Father teaches will come to Christ, some will resist. But those who do come were indeed taught by the Father.

I get a little tired of this argument from Calvinists and cannot help but believe they are being purposely disingenuous here. In Matthew 22 Jesus clearly speaks of men who are called and bidden to the wedding but refuse to come. So it is obvious that not all who are drawn come.

All that come are drawn- This is truth supported by scripture.

All that are drawn come- This is false and not supported by scripture.

Calvinists use a false form of argument, and I am amazed that intelligent men can fall for it. It is like saying:

All cherries are red, therefore everything that is red is a cherry.

Sounds silly, but that is the very type of illogical fallacy Calvinists use when it comes to this matter of men being drawn by God.