1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Drawn by the Spirit

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by J. Jump, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have spent a great many hours reading the threads throuhgout this debate and have decided to chime in. All though it's really not a chime, but a question. So here goes for my first post...

    I think both sides would agree (maybe I'm wrong here) that no one can be saved (regenerated) unless that person is drawn by the Holy Spirit. So my question is does the Holy Spirit draw ALL men or just the elected.

    Please back up your answers with Scriptures.
     
  2. rc

    rc New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Ratings:
    +0
    Semi-pelagian huh? ...
     
  3. Drew

    Drew New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    Ratings:
    +0
    "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
    (John 6:36-40 NASB)
     
  4. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Ratings:
    +0
    RC,

    I have no idea what you are talking about. Wasn't making a statement to what I believe, but merely asking a question as to where the Holy Spirit draws all men or just the elect.

    Would like to read your response with your scriptural basis.

    Drew,

    I am going to have to make an assumption that you say that the Holy Spirit only draws the elect. Is that correct? I don't like making assumptions for the obvious reasons [​IMG]
     
  5. Drew

    Drew New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    Ratings:
    +0
    You are correct. The elect are God's chosen children of promise.

    "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."
    (Romans 9:6-8 NASB)
     
  6. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Drew for clarifying!
     
  7. Drew

    Drew New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    Ratings:
    +0
    Your welcome. BTW: Nice website.
     
  8. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Ratings:
    +0
    Drew,

    Thank you for your kind words, may it bring honore and glory to God!
     
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Ratings:
    +0
    Jesus said,
    "If I be lifted up, I draw all men to me". Right out of the mouth of GOD the son!
     
  10. Kiffen

    Kiffen New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    641
    Ratings:
    +0
    Do you believe the guy in Mongolia who has never even heard of the name of Jesus is being drawn to Him right now? There are many who die in this life who never hear the name of Jesus or the Gospel, so the context is not that every single person.

    All men refers to all nations, peoples, ethnic groups being drawn to Christ. The Gospel is not limited to the Jews but all are invited! [​IMG] (John 3:16, Rev. 22:17). The Scottish Calvinist Thomas Boston said it well, “‘Go and tell everyman without exception that here is good news for him.". [​IMG]
     
  11. Drew

    Drew New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    Ratings:
    +0
    Wes,
    This response is similar to one in another thread. So that I do not make any assumptions, could you please explain your understanding of the Trinity?
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi JJump;
    The scriptures to my knowledge never says that only a select few are drawn. However in;

    Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    This says that "Salvation is come to the Gentiles" It doesn't say a few Gentiles but is all inclusive. I believe this shows that all man are elected for Salvation.

    I also believe that Everyone besides the Gentiles are Jews and these have been elected since Jacob.We are all elected for Salvation

    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    I believe that when men hear the gospel they recognize that this is what is written on there hearts.

    2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    They know it is right and when they recognize it the Spirit convicts us of our sins.

    All men are drawn because Christ was lifted up we are drawn by that which is written on our hearts.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  13. rc

    rc New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Ratings:
    +0
    Wes, Wes, Wes.... taking things way out of context again... Why do you think John included that the Gentiles where around when Jesus said that... The all means Jews and Greek, else the myopic Jews would of taken that verse as meaning the Jews only. In context, God draws HIS sheep and He will lift ALL believers (from every nation) up
     
  14. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Ratings:
    +0
    Do you believe the guy in Mongolia who has never even heard of the name of Jesus is being drawn to Him right now? There are many who die in this life who never hear the name of Jesus or the Gospel, so the context is not that every single person.

    All men refers to all nations, peoples, ethnic groups being drawn to Christ. The Gospel is not limited to the Jews but all are invited! [​IMG] (John 3:16, Rev. 22:17). The Scottish Calvinist Thomas Boston said it well, “‘Go and tell everyman without exception that here is good news for him.". [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]God has not revealed his schedule to me, but he has revealed the truth of his son to me!
     
  15. Kiffen

    Kiffen New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    641
    Ratings:
    +0
    That never answered the question. It is a fact many people die never hearing the Gospel or knowing who Jesus is. They die in their sins doomed to eternal damnation.

    The verse you quoted refers to the fact that Christ is drawing all men of all races, nations to Himself. It in no way means every individual for millions upon millions have never heard the Gospel.
     
  16. rc

    rc New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Ratings:
    +0
    Right on Kiffen. Common sense.

    ESV John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

    So all that the father draws WILL BE SAVED. So He doesn't draw everyone, unless you are a universalist.
     
  17. Drew

    Drew New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    Ratings:
    +0
    Do you think that it just might be possible that Paul gives clarification on what Jesus was saying here when Paul reveals the the "mystery":

    Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made know to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen. (Romans 16:25-27)

    For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." (Romans 11:24-26)

    In case you are wondering, "all Israel" is in reference to Paul's earlier statement in Romans 9:

    "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." (Romans 9:6-8)

    This is another case of "All" meaning not just the Jews but also the Gentiles.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Ratings:
    +0
    Here it is two thousand years after the routine death of a relatively insignificant young man, and yet the whole world continues to be either attracted to or repelled from that one solitary life!

    So I ask you, Did Jesus being lifted up draw all men to him or not?

    Who else in history compares?
     
  19. Drew

    Drew New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have already answered that Wes.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Ratings:
    +0
    You obviously have not settled the issue in your heart because you keep asking the same questions.
     
Loading...