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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by No Deceit, Nov 15, 2003.

  1. No Deceit

    No Deceit New Member

    Jun 4, 2003
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    Three main errors abide.

    1) Biblical wine was substantially different in alcoholic content than today's wine.

    2) Drinking alcoholic beverages is a sin.

    3) A person can be a Christian on their way to heaven and at the same time be a drunkard.

    Each one of these is a lie.

    I. Word Games

    For an example of the first lie (Biblical wine was substantially different in alcoholic content than today's wine), Pastor Andy Pietrylo of Bible Baptist Church Of Mandarin (4211 Julington Creek Rd., Jacksonville, FL 32223-2001) states,

    Unfermented wine was the most common wine in biblical times. It was not what we know today. You cannot defend wine drinking today on the basis of biblical times because the two are totally different (Wine and Alcohol, www.jax-inter.net/~dajohn/Wine.html , 10-29-01, hard copy on file)

    "Unfermented wine"? That's like clean filth. Wine, by its very definition, is fermented, as Webster states,

    wine (win) n. . . . 1the fermented juice of grapes, used as an alcoholic beverage 2the fermented juice of other fruits or plants ( Webster's New World Compact School and Office Dictionary , copyright 1995, p. 493)

    So, besides his use of an oxymoron ("unfermented wine"), Dr. Pietrylo supports this conclusion, not with Biblical proof, but rather he uses the testimony of Aristotle, The Donovan Bible Commentary, Smith's Bible Dictionary, and his own words, which all prove nothing; because Scripture is the standard, not Aristotle, Donovan, Smith, or Pietrylo no matter what they say (Colossians 2:8-10)!

    Pietrylo's main argument is that,

    The wine was stored by boiling the juice until the water was evaporated. What was left was a thick, nonintoxicating syrup or paste. (ibid.)

    This statement is nowhere substantiated in Scripture. Actually, such dehydration is depicted as abnormal and bad.

    The field is wasted, the land mourns; for the grain is ruined, the new wine is dried up, the oil fails. (Joel 1:10)

    New wine being dried up is in the context of judgment, not the normal routine of life.

    Another example of the first lie can be found in an article written by Pastor Rick Rogers (Calvary Baptist Church, 9122 Durand Ave., Sturtevant, WI, 262-886-4463). He writes,

    Wine today is different than Biblical wine. ( http://logosresourcepages.org/alcohol.htm , under Biblical background, 2., hard copy on file, printed 10-21-01)


    D. Biblical Warnings (Remember, we are speaking of Biblical wine and strong drink - that which is much weaker than alcohol today). (ibid.)


    E. Biblical Questions: what about the passages that seem to condone the use of alcohol?
    1. Remember foremost that the terms were different in biblical times than now! (ibid.)

    So says Mr. Rogers, not the word of God (Proverbs 30:5-6). Rogers supports his claim, in part, by arguing,

    B. Biblical Background:
    1. Wine, including fermented, was used in earlier times to purify water that was stored in cisterns and wells. That was a major use of it! It was mixed with water at a very low ratio, consisting of the lowest ration of (3 parts water to 1 part wine-which was the lowest acceptable ratio; this produced a drink that was 2.5%-2.75% alcoholic) up to (20+ parts water to 1 part wine). (ibid.)

    "Wine, including fermented"? Again, that's like saying, "Humans, including homosapiens." This "unfermented wine" idea is contrary to reality. Nevertheless, Roger claims this mixing was the "major use" of wine in Scripture, yet he does not back this up with a single verse. Not only is this idea unsubstantiated in the Word of God (Proverbs 30:5-6), but the Word reveals just the opposite. Isaiah 1:22 depicts the mixing of water with wine as a bad thing.

    Your silver has become dross, your wine mixed with water. (Isaiah 1:22)

    In other words, it is no good. Silver that has become dross is bad silver. Likewise, wine mixed with water is bad wine.

    As part of their deceit, Both Pietrylo and Rogers state that the Hebrew word for new wine, tirosh , is "fresh grape juice." This cannot be substantiated anywhere in the Word. In fact, the same Hebrew word is used in Hosea 4:11 translated "new wine."

    Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart. (Hosea 4:11)

    It should be obvious that fresh grape juice is not addicting ("enslave the heart") as new alcoholic wine can be.

    If the Lord wanted to say "grape juice" He could have, and, in fact, He did in Numbers 6:3.

    He shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. (Numbers 6:3)

    The Hebrew words for "grape juice" (mishrate anavim) are literally rendered, "juice of grapes," or in other words, "grape juice." When the Bible says, "wine" it means "wine." Those who say otherwise make God a liar (as in 1 John 1:10; 5:10).

    Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, a Seventh-Day Adventist, makes God a liar and argues over words (1 Timothy 6:4) stating,

    "Wine" in Biblical Perspective. Building on the conclusions reached in Chapter 2, I proceeded in Chapter 3 to examine the reasons for the Biblical approval and disapproval of wine. What I found is that the positive references to "wine" have to do with unfermented and unintoxicating grape juice. . . .

    On the other hand, the negative references to "wine" have to do with fermented and intoxicating wine. (www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.htm1, hard copy on file, 10-29-01)

    How convenient. Change the word "wine" into the idea of "unfermented" grape juice and then conclude, without any Biblical support, that the positive references to wine actually refer to this oxymoronic "unfermented" wine, and the negative passages refer to fermented wine.

    II. Terms

    What are the Hebrew and Greek words for wine and what do they mean? In short, they mean what they say.

    A. The Old Testament

    In the Hebrew there are several different words for wine, and they are never used to mean "grape juice." The most common Hebrew word for wine is yayin (used 141 times), and drunk to excess, can certainly intoxicate (e.g. Genesis 9:21). It is used in Genesis 9:21, 24; 14:18; 19:32-35; 27:25; 49:11-12; Exodus 29:40; Leviticus 10:9; 23:13; Numbers 6:3 (2x), 4, 20; 15:5, 7, 10; 28:14; Deuteronomy 14:26; 28:39; 29:6; 32:33, 38; Joshua 9:4, 13; Judges 13:4, 14 (2x); 13:7; 19:19; 1 Samuel 1:14-15, 24; 10:3; 16:20; 25:18, 37; 2 Samuel 13:28; 16:1, 2; 1 Chronicles 9:29; 12:40; 27:27; 2 Chronicles 2:10, 15; 11:11; Nehemiah 2:1 (2x); 5:15, 18; 13:15; Esther 1:7, 10; 5:6; 7:2, 7-8; Job 1:13, 18; 32:19; Psalm 60:3; 75:8; 78:65; 104:15; Proverbs 4:17; 9:2, 5; 20:1; 21:17; 23:20, 30-31; 31:4, 6; Ecclesiastes 2:3; 9:7; 10:19; Song of Solomon 1:2, 4; 2:4; 4:10; 5:1; 7:9; 8:2; Isaiah 5:11, 12, 22; 16:10; 22:13; 24:9, 11; 28:1, 7 (2x); 29:9; 55:1, 21; 56:12; Jeremiah 13:12 (2x); 23:9; 25:15; 35:2, 5 (2x), 6 (2x), 8, 14; 40:10, 12; 48:33; 51:7; Lamentations 2:12; Ezekiel 27:18; 44:21; Daniel 1:5, 8, 16; 10:3; Hosea 4:11; 7:5; 9:4; 14:7; Joel 1:5; 3:3; Amos 2:8, 12; 5:11; 6:6; 9:14; Micah 2:11; 6:15; Habakkuk 2:5; Zephaniah 1:13; Haggai 2:12; and Zechariah 9:15 & 10:7.

    The next most common Hebrew word for wine is tirosh (used 38 times). This also can intoxicate as yayin can (see Hosea 4:11 where both words are used for the same enslavement of alcohol). Tirosh is usually translated "wine" or "new wine" and is used in Genesis 27:28, 37; Numbers 18:12; Deuteronomy 7:13; 11:14; 12:17; 14:23; 18:4; 28:51; 33:28; Judges 9:13; 2 Kings 18:32; 2 Chronicles 31:5; 32:28; Nehemiah 5:11; 10:37, 39; 13:5, 12; Psalm 4:7; Proverbs 3:10; Isaiah 24:7; 36:17; 62:8; 65:8; Jeremiah 31:12; Hosea 2:8-9, 22; 4:11; 7:14; 9:2; Joel 1:10; 2:19, 24; Micah 6:15; Haggai 1:11; and Zechariah 9:17.

    Another Hebrew word translated "wine" is hemer (used twice), and in Aramaic it is hamar (used 6 times). This word is closely linked to the Hebrew word hamar ("ferment" e.g. Psalm 75:9 "the wine foams" NAS) and hamar ("red" e.g. Psalm 75:9 "the wine is red" NKJV). This word is found in Deuteronomy 32:14; Ezra 6:9; 7:22; Daniel 5:1, 2, 4, 23; and Isaiah 27:2.

    Another Hebrew word translated "wine" is asis (or asiys, used 5 times). This word is translated "sweet wine" in Isaiah 49:26 and Amos 9:13. In Song of Solomon 8:2 it is translated "juice" ("of my pomegranate"), and it is describing "spiced wine" (Song of Solomon 8:2). In Joel 1:5 and 3:18 it is translated "new wine." If anyone wondered if asis truly means "wine" (i.e. fermented), Isaiah 49:26 and Joel 1:5 should remove any doubt.

    Another Hebrew word for "wine" is shemer (used 5 times). This word is used for older wine in Isaiah 25:6 (2x), for the "dregs" of wine in Psalm 75:8 and Jeremiah 48:11, and figuratively in Zephaniah 1:12 for those who are "settled in complacency" (literally, "thickened on their dregs"). Dregs (or lees) refers to the sentiment that accumulates in the fermentation process. Therefore, with the idea of "dregs," the wine spoken of here is indeed wine.

    Another Hebrew word for "wine" is mimisak (used twice). This word is translated "drink offering" in Isaiah 65:11 and "mixed wine" in Proverbs 23:30. The passage in Proverbs is in the context of drunkards who search for it.

    Finally, there is the Hebrew word mezeg (used once). It is translated in Song of Solomon 7:2 as "blended beverage" (NAS "mixed wine," KJV "liquor").

    The Hebrew word translated "strong drink" or "intoxicating drink" is shacar (used 23 times). This is used in Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3 (2x); 28:7; Deuteronomy 14:26; 29:5; Judges 13:4, 7, 14; 1 Samuel 1:15; Psalm 69:12; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4, 6; Isaiah 5:11, 22; 24:9; 28:7 (3x); 29:9; 56:12; and Micah 2:11. One use of this word gives a death blow to the folly of men like Rick Rogers.

    In the article mentioned above, Rogers states,

    Wine today is different than Biblical wine. "Strong drink . . . unmixed wine . . ." in Biblical times was only 3-11% alcohol. Those who drank this form of alcohol were considered barbaric! Distillation, which increases alcohol content, was not discovered until A.D. 1500. Modern wine has 9-11% alcohol; 80-100 proof whiskey and brandy has 40-50% alcohol; Biblically and culturally, these would have been unthinkable! (ibid.)

    Rogers reveals his historical tunnel vision in his statement about distillation. Just because modern man records distillation as first being discovered in A.D. 1500, this does not mean the ancients of old did not use distillation (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). Moreover, if Rogers is correct, then the Lord did the unthinkable and encouraged the Israelites to be barbaric, because Yahweh said,

    And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. (Deuteronomy 14:26)

    The Hebrew word for "similar drink" in this verse is Shacar. It could well be translated "strong drink," as it is in Proverbs 20:1, or "intoxicating drink," as it is in Leviticus 10:9. The Israelites are told by God to get whatever their heart desires, and this could include strong drink.

    B. The New Testament

    In the Greek, the most common word for wine is oinos (used 28 times). This word is used for the wine Jesus made (John 2:3, 9, 10 [2x]; 4:46), the wine Paul commands not to get drunk with (Ephesians 5:18), and the wine Paul tells Timothy to drink a little of it for his stomach's sake and his frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5:23). The word is elsewhere used in Matthew 9:17 (2x); 27:34; Mark 2:22; 15:23; Luke 1:15; 5:37-38; 7:33; 10:34; Romans 14:21; 1 Timothy 3:8; Titus 2:3; and Revelation 6:6; 14:8, 10; 16:19; 17:2; 18:3, 13; & 19:15. There is nothing peculiar about this word. It means "wine."

    After oinos, not much is left in the Greek New Testament for the term "wine." The Greek word for "sour wine" is oxos (used 5 times) and is used in Matthew 27:48; Mark 15:36; Luke 23:36; and John 19:29 & 30. The Greek word translated "new wine" in Acts 2:13 is gleukos, and is only used here, in the context of an accusation of being drunk from drinking it (Acts 2:15). Finally, there is one Greek word used one time in the New Testament for "strong drink" (sikera), and this is found in Luke 1:15 where Gabriel states that John the Baptist will not drink wine nor strong drink. The Greek word for "grape juice" (trux) is not used in the New Testament.

    Therefore, in conclusion, it should be evident that the terms used in the Bible for wine and strong drink do not indicate anything different than our present day wine and strong drink. Those who argue to the contrary are only supported by arguments from history and the supposed practice of that day, but upon a Biblical foundation they do not stand.

    III. Is Drinking Alcohol Sin?

    Southhaven Church of Christ (1483 Brookhaven Dr., Southhaven, MS, 38671, 662-393-2690) has on their web site an article by Kevin D. Beard in which he writes,

    For many years, not only members of the Lord's church, but also religious people in general have understood the drinking of alcohol in any quantity to be sinful. But that attitude is changing. Many in the Lord's church believe there is nothing wrong with so-called "social" drinking. But such is not true. The only Scriptural grounds for drinking beverage alcohol is found in 1 Timothy 5:23, but the purpose of Paul's instruction to Timothy is not for pleasure, but for the medicinal qualities of the wine. Scripture condemns the recreational use of beverage alcohol in any amount. (www. southhavencoc.org/Articles/drinking.htm, hard copy on file, 10-29-01)

    To support his stand, Mr. Beard argues it is wrong because the Bible commands self-control (e.g. Galatians 5:22-23), soberness (e.g. 1 Peter 1:13), separation from the world (e.g. Romans 12:1-2), and condemns drunkenness (e.g. Romans 13:13). Amen to self-control, soberness, separation from the world, and a refusal to get drunk, but all these can be lived out, and yet an alcoholic beverage can be enjoyed in moderation breaching not one of these commands (e.g. Luke 7:33-34; Hebrews 7:26).

    Mr. Beard goes so far as to indicate that you will lose your soul if you drink alcohol "in any amount" (except for medicinal purposes).

    Drinking beverage alcohol in any amount is wrong. Christians must have no part of it, no matter what the world may say. But if any still doubt the danger of it, answer this question: Is your soul worth it? (ibid.)

    Nothing is worth losing your soul (Mark 8:36; 9:42-48). But, drinking an alcoholic beverage is not wrong. Paul wrote,

    The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)

    Paul's statement is made in the context of drinking wine (Romans 14:21). It is not wrong to drink wine (Luke 7:33-34), or even strong drink (Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV).

    Those who claim, as Kevin Beard does, that drinking wine is sinful, actually pronounce sin upon Him who is "without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). Because, Christ drank wine.

    For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, "He has a demon." The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, "Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!" (Luke 7:33-34)

    In the context of drinking wine, Christ says He came "drinking." In other words, He came drinking wine. As the haters of Christ accused Him of sin on this very same issue many years ago accusing Him of being a drunkard (winebibber), so today, men who teach drinking wine is wrong accuse the same One of similar sin. In fact, the wicked of old were more Biblically accurate in their accusation. It would certainly be wrong to be a winebibber (a drunkard, Proverbs 20:1), but to simply drink an alcoholic beverage is not a sin. Otherwise, Jesus Himself sinned.

    Terry Watkins, in his reliance upon his own understanding, comes right out and calls Jesus a sinner!

    What about when Jesus turned the water into wine at the marriage in Cana. If Jesus Christ turned water into fermented liquor, he directly disobeyed Habakkuk 2:15, "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also . . ." And, if Jesus disobeyed Habakkuk - HE WAS A SINNER! (emphasis in original, World?s Deadliest Drug tract, Dial-The-Truth Ministries, 5990 Willow Ridge Rd., Pinson, Al 35126; 205-681-9956)

    Watkins radically perverts Habakkuk 2:15. He leaves out the very phrase that would expose his perversion. The end of the verse, which Watkins leaves out, reads, ". . . that thou mayest look on their nakedness! " (Habakkuk 2:15, KJV). What is condemned in Habakkuk 2:15 is getting someone drunk so that you can look on their nakedness, not just getting someone drunk (see below, VI. Giving Strong Drink ). Lot's daughters made their father drunk so that they could look on his nakedness (Genesis 19:32-35). Jesus did no such thing. Yet, He did make real wine (i.e. fermented), and according to Terry Watkins, if Jesus really did make wine (i.e. fermented), then " HE WAS A SINNER!"

    Christ was no sinner (John 8:46; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Yet, He did make real wine (i.e. fermented). As it is written,

    When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!" (John 2:9-10)

    What is "good wine"? Old wine.

    And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, "The old is better." (Luke 5:39)

    Jesus made wine (oinos), good wine, real wine (fermented), and don't let anyone tell you otherwise (Colossians 2:8-10).

    Another example of the condemnation of drinking wine can be found with Dr. Pietrylo. He clearly declares the drinking of wine to be sin.


    There are many warnings and commands by God that instruct us not to drink wine. In Proverbs 23:29-35 we are told not even to look at alcohol. (ibid.)

    What is Proverb 23:29-35 talking about?

    Those who linger long at the wine, those who go in search of mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30)

    The entire passage is in the context of the use of alcohol in excess.

    Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, those who go in search of mixed wine. Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly; at the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart will utter perverse things. (Proverbs 23:29-33)

    Verse 32 says, " At the last it bites like a serpent . . . ." It is not at the first, but at the last. A small glass of wine or even a shot of whiskey will not cause you "to see strange things" or "utter perverse things." These verses describe a drunken stupor, not someone who has drank in moderation.

    For those who might be tempted to linger long at the wine, Scripture indeed exhorts,

    Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly. (Proverbs 23:31)

    In other words, don't let yourself be tempted. This is consistent with Christ's exhortation in Matthew 18:8-9 and Mark 9:43-47 where Jesus says to cut off anything that causes you to sin. Likewise, Proverbs 5:8 exhorts to not even go near the door of the immoral woman's house. So, here, Proverbs instructs to not even look at the wine, because if you go down the road of debauchery,

    Yes, you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, or like one who lies at the top of the mast, saying: "They have struck me, but I was not hurt; they have beaten me, but I did not feel it. When shall I awake, that I may seek another drink?" (Proverbs 23:34-35)

    Alcoholic beverages, used in excess, indeed can destroy. Proverbs 20:1 warns,

    Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

    It does not say, "whoever drinks it is not wise," but rather, "whoever is led astray by it." To drink wine or strong drink to the point of drunkenness is not wise, and it is a breach of the Lord's commands.

    And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit. (Ephesians 5:18)

    Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, . . . (Romans 13:13)

    Several times over we are instructed to be sober (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 8; Titus 2:2; 1 Peter 1:13; 5:8). Drinking large amounts of alcohol makes this impossible to obey, and those who live this way are most definitely "led astray" (Proverbs 20:1). But, to drink in moderation, is not only allowed by God, it's commanded.

    Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already accepted your works. (Ecclesiastes 9:7)

    In opposition to this Word, Rick Rogers argues,

    Consider: Dr. Norman Geisler writes: "Christians ought not to drink wine, beer, or other beverages for they are actually strong drink and forbidden in Scripture. Even ancient pagans did not drink what Christians drink today." ["A Christian Perspective on Wine Drinking," Bibliotheca Sacra January - March, 1982, p. 51] The Bible condemns strong drink (remember, 3-11% alcohol?) which covers virtually all alcohol popular today. No Biblical defense can be used to support the consumption of alcohol! (ibid., under B. Biblical Background)

    Besides the fact that: 1) Christ both made (John 2:1-11; 4:46) and drank wine (Matthew 11:18-19; Luke 7:33-34). 2) Paul says the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking (Romans 14:17, 21). 3) Ecclesiastes 9:7 encourages to " drink your wine ." And, 4) the Lord instructed the Israelites to drink strong drink if they so desired (Deuteronomy 14:26). A Biblical defense can indeed be further made to support the consumption of alcohol.

    To begin with, Melchizedek is a good example to follow (Genesis 14:18). When Abraham returned from warring with Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, Melchizedek, the priest of God Most High (Genesis 14:18), the eternal man (Hebrews 7:1-3, 8, 16), came to Abraham and brought with him bread and wine. Bread is for food. Wine is for drink.

    Furthermore, though the priests could not drink wine or intoxicating drink when they went into the tabernacle (Leviticus 10:9), they could drink wine at other times (Numbers 18:12). Though the Israelites did not drink wine or similar drink as they wandered in the desert those 40 years (Deuteronomy 29:5-6), nonetheless, in anticipation of finally arriving in the promised land, the Lord commanded them to drink wine in their worship of Him (Deuteronomy 14:23). Moreover, someone who took a Nazirite vow could not drink wine during the time of his separation (Numbers 6:3), but after this, after he has properly presented his offering before the Lord, " the Nazirite may drink wine " (Numbers 6:20).

    Issac drank wine (Genesis 27:25) and blessed his son Jacob with plenty of it (Genesis 27:28, 37). Jotham declares wine to cheer both God and men (Judges 9:13). The godly woman Abigail (1 Samuel 25:3-35) brought David wine for him and his men to drink (1 Samuel 25:18). Nehemiah and those with him drank wine (Nehemiah 5:18). Esther, who was a godly woman (Esther 2:7; 4:15-16, etc.), made a banquet of wine (Esther 5:6; 7:2, 8). Job, a man who was blameless and upright (Job 1:1, 8; 2:3), allowed his children to drink wine (Job 1:13, 18). The Song of Solomon, several times over, describes wine as a good thing (Song of Solomon 1:2, 4; 2:4 " banqueting house " NKJV, Hebrew " house of wine "; 4:10; 7:9); Solomon says, " I have drunk my wine " (S.S. 5:1), and his wife says, " I would cause you to drink of spiced wine " (S.S. 8:2). Psalm 104:14 says the Lord makes wine (brings it forth), and it " makes glad the heart of man ." Isaiah 25:6 says,

    The Lord of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees.

    Isaiah 55:1 figuratively says to " buy wine ." Wine is seen as a blessing from God (Proverbs 3:9-10; Isaiah 25:6; Jeremiah 31:12; Joel 2:18-19, 24; Amos 9:13), and to be thwarted from drinking it is illustrated in a curse (Micah 6:15; Zephaniah 1:13).

    Scripture does not support the notion that drinking an alcoholic beverage is sinful. What is sinful, is drinking in excess (e.g. Isaiah 5:11). And, even in Proverbs 30:4-5 this is what is in view.

    It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink; lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the justice of all the afflicted. (Proverbs 31:4-5)

    Prior to this, Lemuel's mother instructs,

    Do not give your strength to women, nor your ways to that which destroys kings. (Proverbs 31:3; see also Proverbs 7:26)

    This verse is not a condemnation of all women, nor a condemnation of all sexual activity, but rather, it warns of immoral women and the practice of immoral sex. Likewise, Proverbs 31:4 does not forbid the moderate use of wine or intoxicating drink, but rather the misuse of it, " lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the justice of all the afflicted ." The balance is found in Ecclesiastes 10:17.

    Blessed are you, O land, when your king is the son of nobles, and your princes feast at the proper time - for strength and not for drunkenness! (Ecclesiastes 10:17)

    IV. How Much, When, And With Whom?

    Since Scripture encourages the moderate use of alcohol (e.g. Genesis 14:18; Deuteronomy 14:23, 26; Ecclesiastes 9:7; Luke 7:33-34; etc.), at what point does the drinking become sin? When God is disobeyed, then it is sin. The Lord says, "do not be drunk with wine" (Ephesians 5:18), and "be sober" (1 Peter 1:13). As long as these commands are not breached, then the drinking has been moderate, and no sin has been committed.

    Yet, sin has been committed, if, by drinking alcohol, a brother has been caused to stumble or is offended (Romans 14:20).

    It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. (Romans 14:21)

    If a brother in the Lord is offended, or even if an ungodly man is offended, abstinence, for their sake, should be observed (1 Corinthians 9:19-22; 10:31-33; 2 Corinthians 6:3). Paul says,

    All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats [or drinks] with offense . (Romans 14:20)

    Eating or drinking with offense is eating or drinking in defiance of those who are known to be in disapproval of the behavior. This is the context of both Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10:31-33. This does not address a circumstance in which such disapproval is unknown. Scripture does not dictate a believer should completely abstain from drinking any alcohol, lest someone someday somewhere might be offended. Jesus openly came eating and drinking (Luke 7:33-34), and His example can be followed. Abstinence can also be practiced, if so desired. Either way, one thing that should never be submitted to, or given any kind of approval, is false doctrine concerning this matter. Paul writes,

    So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths. (Colossians 2:16)

    Out of love we may choose not to drink in someone's presence. But in truth, we should stand firm on what Scripture teaches about this issue, speak the truth, and in no way cower to any doctrine of men.

    And, although we may have the freedom to drink, we do not have the freedom to be fellow drinkers with those who over indulge.

    Hear, my son, and be wise; and guide your heart in the way. Do not mix with winebibbers, or with gluttonous eaters of meat; for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty. (Proverbs 23:21; see also 1 Corinthians 15:33).

    V. Drunkards Go To Hell!

    God says,

    Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may follow intoxicating drink; who continue until night, till wine inflames them! (Isaiah 5:11)

    Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink. (Isaiah 5:22; see also 28:1-8; 56:12)

    In Galatians 5:21 drunkenness is listed as one of the deeds of the flesh and those who practice such will not inherit the kingdom of God. Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 drunkards are listed as unrighteous and among those who will not go to heaven. Even in the law, it is recognized that the drunkard should not be included with the sober (Deuteronomy 29:19).

    Yet, despite such clear declarations in Scripture, there are still those who teach to the contrary. Like Jack Hayford, who says,

    I'll tell you something, there's never been a person who was addicted to smoking, addicted to liquor , never been a person who was addicted to immorality, never been a person who was on the brink of suicide, there's never been a person who named the name of Jesus Christ, and His life and in fact entered them, that no matter how encrusted or encased they were with their sin, there's never existed the person to whatever degree, small or great, that bondage has been in their life, that there still was not enough power of Jesus in them to minister to somebody else. Oh, listen! Greater is He that is in you than everything else that's around. Hallelujah. (tape # 02439B, "The Sin Of Suicide," bold added)

    Contrary to Hayford's statement, Jesus is not in drunkards. Those who are "addicted to liquor" are still lost in their sin (John 8:34) and are without God (Ephesians 2:12). Hayford turns the grace of God into lewdness (Jude 4), and proclaims the exact opposite of the Word (John 8:31-36).

    In Rick Rogers article mentioned above, Roger claims,

    Alcohol is responsible for approx. 66% of all fatal accidents; 70% of all murders; 50% of all rapes; 60% of child abuse and child molestation cases; and commits more people to the mental hospital than any other cause!

    Actually, it is people who lack self-control and are wicked who are responsible for 100% of all these things. The misuse of alcohol is only part of their evil, and the subsequent damage and crimes are simply resultant of their rebellious hearts and evil ways (Proverbs 17:11).

    VI. Giving Strong Drink

    One astounding passage that not only runs against the grain of some of the error we've seen so far (e.g. Terry Watkins), but pushes right off the edge the promotion of sobriety for the wicked (that is, for those who refuse to repent, Psalm 7:11-12).

    Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those who are bitter of heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. (Proverbs 31:6-7)

    Scripture actually instructs us to give strong drink to the wicked (him who is perishing). Why? So he can " drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more ." In other words, so he can get drunk and forget all his troubles!

    Here is a practical application of Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:32.

    If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

    The wicked, who refuse to heed the gospel of God, live in this very lie. They live as if, and believe in their hearts (Psalm 14:1), that "the dead do not rise." Therefore, they do not consider their latter end (Deuteronomy 32:29). And, what is so amazing about all of this is, the Lord does not tell us to attempt to clean up these sinners, even though they heed not the Word. Instead, He tells us to give them booze, so that their days can be spent with less personal turmoil; because " wine makes merry " (Ecclesiastes 10:19).

    Proverbs 31:6-7 throws out any idea of a "Christian" rehabilitation center. If a drunkard took heed to the gospel, he would be set free (John 8:34-36) and would no longer be a drunkard. He would need no rehab to get him off of the abuse of alcohol. The Savior would give him all he needs (2 Peter 1:3). This is the power of godliness (2 Timothy 3:5)!

    If a drunkard refused to believe in Christ, should we then still attempt to get him off the bottle? No. Scripture commands to actually encourage him to drink, to give him a bottle (Proverbs 31:6-7). We should certainly warn him that drunkards will go to hell, and give him the truth of the gospel; but if he refuses to take heed, buy him a six pack or a pint of Jack Daniels. This is what the Lord says to do (Proverbs 31:6-7). Indeed, His thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8).

    a true church, P. O. Box 797, Lake Hughes, CA 93532

    1-800-HOW-TRUE, www.atruechurch.info
  2. Smoky

    Smoky Member

    May 19, 2002
    Likes Received:
    If what you say about "oinos" always being alcoholic wine and never grape juice, then I want you to contemplate the remifications of :
    John 2:9-10 (ESV)
    When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom
    [10] and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."

    Are you saying that, after everyone had had too much to drink, that our Lord provided even more intoxication which would make them completely stoned?
  3. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Dec 5, 2001
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    I think I'm going to go have a glass of oinos right now. ;)

    "Thou dost cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man" (Psalm 104)
  4. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
    Site Supporter

    Oct 25, 2001
    Likes Received:
    Too early in the day, for me. Perhaps a Becks to celebrate the Patriots trouncing the Cowboys this evening.
  5. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

    Jun 15, 2001
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    Well, this post breaks my heart.

    *sob* I can't have any oinos any more because of my Hepatitis C.

    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! :( :( :(

    Dern!!! :mad:
  6. Frank

    Frank New Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Likes Received:
    No Deceit:
    The word oinos in the new testament has a dual meaning. It may mean unfermented or fermented fruit. The context must be used to know the implied meaning. If you are implying social drinking is acceptable based on the usage of the word in the new testament, you have gone beyond that which is written (I Cor. 4:6).
    The argument that only drunkenness is forbidden is not biblical. The word methusko is used in reference to being drunk with wine in Eph. 5:18, the word means to be in the process of, to grow ,to become, ( it is an inceptive verb, makiing the process or the state). Furthermore, The miraculous act of Christ at the wedding would have violated the old law of Habakuk 2:15. The Bible says in this passage, ¶Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! If Christ had made the wine of Cana, alcoholic ( John 2), he would have been giving his neighbor that which would be making him drunk. This would also violated the principle established in Ephesians 5:18. You have perverted the language of Habakuk 2:15 the idea of the drink and uncovering nakekdness are linked by the word two words AND,and ALSO. In other words, the sin of promoting the alcoholic beverage also causes another sin that being to look upon the nakedness of others. These thoughts are continuous and connected by the coordinating conjunction AND the word also, which means in addition too.The phrases are dependent upon each other for their true meaning.
  7. time like this

    time like this New Member

    Apr 9, 2003
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    Could someone explain how they prevented the natural process of juice from grapes from fermenting? thae fermentation process begins before they get to the press. and even afterwards how did they store it juice to keep it from naturally becoming wine?
  8. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

    Nov 15, 2001
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    Answer: You couldn't.

    In fact, I understand that even while the grapes are being pressed (or stomped-on by the feet) the process of fermentation is already begining!

    And by the time it is poured into "new wine skins," it is already fermented, albeit still new wine, and not.....quite.......ready. [​IMG]

    Carson, I'm coming over to your house! [​IMG]

    Hope you have some good stock! [​IMG]

    God bless,



    Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Jan 11, 2002
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    If wine in Biblical times were not fermented Ephesians 5:18 would have read, 'And drink all the wine you desire until you are filled, and by the same token be filled with the Spirit.' But since wine was fermented, Jesus speaking through the Apostle Paul says, 'And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.'

    The sin of drinking is in becoming drunk, not in drinking a glass of wine. But, more important than eating and drinking is being filled with the Spirit of God.

    It is interesting that some Christians come down hard on any kind of drinking but their wives or husbands can hardly walk through the threshold of a door, without touching either side. We call that gluttony. [Deut. 21:20 & Luke 7:34]

    God wants us to be moderate in all of our lifestyle, so that we do not slander His Name or the holy Gospel.
  10. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

    Jan 11, 2002
    Likes Received:
    time like this,

    Apparently you are not an owner of a California vineyard.

    If you ever stop by this minister's home I will give you a cordial of Port wine or Dekuyper original peachtree schnapps, if it does not offend your conscience.

    [Ephesians 5:18 a, b]
  11. WPutnam

    WPutnam <img src =/2122.jpg>

    Nov 15, 2001
    Likes Received:
    Ray, God bless you for these two posts!

    I could not agree more!

    I take one glass of red wine (Taylor's Lake Country Red) with my evening meal. It is a fruity wine, a little sweet and not dry, which accompanies the meal I consume.

    That is all I consume...Doctors say that is good for me! [​IMG]

    Nice to agree with you for a change! [​IMG]

    Oh, send me the directions to your house! [​IMG] (Just kidding!)

    God bless,



    I believe in God,
    the Father Almighty,
    Creator of heaven and earth;
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
    Our Lord;
    who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died,
    and was buried.

    He descended into hell;
    the third day He arose again from the dead;
    He ascended into heaven,
    sitteth at the right hand of God,
    the Father almighty;
    from thence He shall come to judge
    the living and the dead.

    I believe in the holy Spirit,
    the Holy Catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting.

  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Jun 26, 2003
    Likes Received:
    There has been more nonsense preached on wine out of ignorance than knowledge.

    Where I live, wine is produced and my parents were grape growers as well. Most of the business about non-alcoholic wine is ignorance and not even possible. Grapes either rot or ferment depending on the storage conditions.
  13. Smoky

    Smoky Member

    May 19, 2002
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    How do we get Welche's grape juice then?
  14. A_Christian

    A_Christian New Member

    May 14, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Welches was invented by the founder of Welches. The process was invented to stop fermentation and produce a "Sacraficial Wine" that would set a good "Christian example" for the temporance movement of the mid to late 19th century.
  15. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest


    The act or process of heating a beverage or other food, such as milk or beer, to a specific temperature for a specific period of time in order to kill microorganisms that could cause disease, spoilage, or undesired fermentation.
  16. Smoky

    Smoky Member

    May 19, 2002
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    It also prevents a lot of hangovers and wife beating!
  17. No Deceit

    No Deceit New Member

    Jun 4, 2003
    Likes Received:
    "It is interesting that some Christians come down hard on any kind of drinking but their wives or husbands can hardly walk through the threshold of a door, without touching either side. We call that gluttony. [Deut. 21:20 & Luke 7:34]"

    Amen. They come down hard on it because they go beyond what is written and follow the doctrines of men. "Unfermented" wine is called grape juice, not wine. This idea of wine that is not wine is crazy. The post stands for itself.

    In His love,
    al soto
  18. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

    Mar 15, 2002
    Likes Received:
    It also prevents a lot of hangovers and wife beating! </font>[/QUOTE]Hangovers, I will give you (only if the person becomes drunk). However, in this line of thinking, we should not eat because we could get fat.

    Wife beating, no, because that persupposes a person prone to violence and anger. Drunkenness does not make people commit things that are against their personality, but rather lowers the inhibitions to make them more prone to do those things they would like to do but are not "brave" enough to do otherwise. Drunkenness doesn't make people angry and violent; it lets the preexisting anger and violence loose.
  19. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

    Nov 10, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but, be filled with the Spirit.


    If you're Spirit-Filled... You can have a *small* glass of wine with your spaghetti dinner! :D

    Not, that I would... [​IMG]

    Paul also taught that *all* things were 'lawful' for him but not all things were expedient or profitable.

    It is decidedly not expedient to drive under the influence or beat your wife...

    I was raised Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal Denom, and *any* alcohol was taboo.

    But, that never prevented different ones from getting hooked on alcohol.

    Paul went on to say that even though all things were lawful, he would not allow himself to be brought under the power of anything (except Christ Himself, Mike's paraphrase).

    If we add that to Romans 14, and also to the Royal Law or Golden Rule we get a picture that being under the influence is decidedly in 'bad form' for a believer.

    Though I am not so sure about being a little 'mellow' before bed. Paul did tell Timothy(?) to take a *little* wine for his stomachs sake.

    Apparently, Timothy sweated the small stuff?

    For me to drink alcohol would be foolish because addiction, especially, alcohol addiction runs in my family.

    So, I simply will not drink any alcohol.

    But, if a brother wants a small glass of wine with a spaghetti dinner I am not going to condemn him.

    (Unless he plans to drive home immediately afterwords. [​IMG] )
  20. Smoky

    Smoky Member

    May 19, 2002
    Likes Received:
    No Deceit,

    What agenda do you have to make such a ridiculous and biased statement like that? You seem to be groping at anything you can to justify drinking. You made some very serious controdictory statements in your original post. You say drinking in excess is sinful, that we are instructed to be sober, that drinking large amounts of alcohol makes it impossible to obey,
    and then you say it's OK to get someone else drunk as long as you don't look on their nakedness.
    To top it all off, you say the kind of juice our Lord created out of water was the kind that was better because it was "old" or more intoxicating.
    What you are inferring is that, "after the guests have well drunk", instead of encouraging moderation, our Lord encouraged them to drink even more!
    The idea that the the ancients could not preserve grape juice the way they do now is a lie. Oinos is a dual word refering to the fruit of the grape, whether fermented or not!