Drinking Responsibly

Lost people know more about how Christians should dress, act, and talk than a lot of us do!

I have heard comments many times from lost people in my town, "Joe says he is a Christian, but look at him drinking that beer, he'll never get ME to church." T

here goes Joe's 'witness'. He has lost his credibility as a Christian over one drink.

It happens people. Whether you believe alcohol is right or wrong....it WILL hurt your testimony.

So, if you want to win souls, I suggest you 'abstain from the appearance of all evil'. You never know who is watching you and SOMEONE always is...

JMHO,
Sue

 

I'm not disagreeing. What I'm questioning is the idea that having a drink is evil.

I also get the feeling that those who use Christians' having a drink or some other thing the world thinks we "goody goody Christians" just don't do as an excuse not to come to Christ are . . oh, wait, I already said it - it's largely an excuse.

 

Lost people know more about how Christians should dress, act, and talk than a lot of us do!
I disagree. Lost people often THINK they know more about Christians than Christians do. That's often why they stay away from churched folks.

Indeed, we do little to break the stereotype that Christians are all hyperfundamentalist bible thumpers with southern accents, white suits, and calico dresses.

 

Speak for yourself! If I'm ever spotted wearing a calico dress, well, it would have to be because I was under some heavy mind control.

But I do get your point, and I completely agree.

 

It seems that Homebound does not know or does not care to know about the Jewish roots of our faith.

The Kiddush ceremony that is performed prior to every Shabbat (Sabbath) service begins with a benediction (Kiddush) over a cup of wine. Wine in the Jewish custom is associated with joy and festivity that reaches to the depths of one's soul. They believe that "Wine is the drink "which cheers God and men" (Judges 9:13). After the blessing is recited, the Kiddush cup of wine is passed around the table. It is customary for everyone to drink a significant portion of the wine. After everyone has a drink of wine, the Shabbat meal is served. Three meals with wine are served on Shabbat. Partaking in these meals was and is considered a form of joyful obedience and divine service to God.

Now, I ask Homebound this question: If Jesus was indeed a Rabbi, wouldn't he take part in the Sabbath meals and drink the wine?

 

Following a lead that someone else provided, I found the following on the Internet on a site about wine:

"Fermentation is a natural process; grapes have yeast on their skins.

When the yeast comes into contact with the natural sugar in the must, it reproduces rapidly and converts the sugar into carbon dioxide (which escapes) and alcohol.

Riper grapes with higher amounts of natural sugar therefore have the potential to produce a wine with more alcohol. On the other hand, if there is not enough natural sugar in the must, the alcohol will be too low and the wine will have little staying power and will taste out of balance."

I find it interesting that while some people whine about Christians drinking wine, God created the grape such that it produces wine naturally.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

 

If Jesus was indeed a Rabbi, wouldn't he take part in the Sabbath meals and drink the wine?

td,

I've brought this same point up several times, and pardon the pun, but the point often gets "passed over".

~John

 

Maybe I should clarify about working on MY witness. I believe someone stated earlier about the "good ole boys" and beer drinkin', partying hard and so on. Folks, that was me and who do you think I talk to now about Jesus? Who do you think are the ones I am working on my witness for? Now, how could I convince them that I am a born again, changed man if they don't see any difference? Even if I only limit myself to one beer, I've heard it before, "Don't see him drinkin' much out here but I wonder what he's got at home." I do therefor worry about what my non-christian friends think. Aren't we taught to keep ourselves above reproach? I don't think drinking alcohol is sinful, just wrong for certain people. Does that make sense?

In Christ

Ronnie

 

Perfect sense to me!

As for me, I was never part of the party scene so the idea of me having a glass of wine now and then does not carry with it any negative connotations to those who know me. Those who don't know me don't know either way. To those who are lost, I have a chance not to act "religious" and be able to talk to them about the big questions of life and the way Christ is meaningful. To those who are saved and assume I am lost, I have an opportunity to model moderation and perhaps change their perspective about what it means to be a Christian.

 

Makes sense to me, too.

 

I will toast to that too!



Sorry. That was done to annoy the ones that are really all tied into knots and hyper-uptight over this matter. Sorry again. Okay, time to get serious now.

RELAX SOME!

I think that BB's point is a good point.

I have a pastor friend who is a biker dude--he is actually one of my former professors, too--you know, Harley Davidson and all that.

He makes exactly the same point that going OUT among the people and witnessing is the Jesus way, and that that can (NOT should) include modeling moderation to folks while others are going overboard.

Beleive it or not, I Am Blessed 16, in most of my current contexts, NOT drinking in moderation would harm, for ME and MY contexts, my wittness. I FULLY believe that within other contexts it would be opposite, and have been in them and acted in kind.

My concern is that any folks all tied up over this issue would just leave the ones alone who have freedom to do this. We who have similar freedom, will leave you alone too...except when you go making new supposedly Biblical laws that do not exist. NNE would push you into drinking--or if they do, they have a BIG problem. It IS unwise for many and in many contexts!

I have a t-shirt I had made at the Fair for me one time. It is one of the mottos of my Christian life. It says, Bustin' Up the Stereotype!

On the other hand, we SHOULD sometimes adapt to what we are "supposed to" look like. We have to play it by ear, sometimes.

But God help us if we as Christians are overall known by our false lists of "don'ts" instead of our list of "do's."

[ April 22, 2003, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Anthro ]

 

I think it is somewhat encumbent upon me to explain what, for me, I mean by a context in which my witness would meet demise by not engaging in moderate alcohol consumption.

I am an athropologist, among other things. A textbook definition of an anthropology is:

Anthropology is a traditional liberal arts discipline which considers the nature and dynamics of human culture and society. Humans are to a large degree the product of their specific social setting and associated cultural tradition, thus our vision of the world around us is often blocked by the limitations of our own circumstances. Anthropology addresses this tremendous variation in the human experience.

To do this anthropologists engage in the methodology called participant-observation. In other words, you become a participant WITH a people to "study" them, and do not just observe them casually or from a distance.

Here is an explanation from field notes of mine that displays my use of alcohol in doing participant-observation:

-----------------------
The Haitian peasantry here in {name witheld} situate themselves within lakou settlements. Lakou-s are compounds of cooperatively-based extended kin, including family members, non-kin, and fictive kin, headed by the oldest male (mét lakou). Most extended families who do not reside in actual lakou-s still typically live close together, such as across a path or up a hill. Both lakou-s as compounds and the clustering of extended kin in close proximity with each other enable Haitian peasant groups to take up voluntarily the excess burdens individuals may face during particularly difficult times one or some may be facing.

Lakou-s diminished during the 1800s, during which time Haitian kinship moved in the direction of nuclear families. The patterning around nuclear family units has created vulnerability within the units, who more often must bear risks apart from larger kin groups. Even so, lakou-s and clustering of extended kin are both still widespread in Haiti.

There are various organizational forms around which the political economy of the Haitian peasantry is organized. Within the Haitian political economy the lowest position one can have is as a paid laborer for a neighbor. However, in the economy and organization of Haitian kove-s, the whole idea is to work for one’s neighbor.

Kove-s are membership-based agricultural work parties whose members are called upon when someone and/or their group needs assistance to clear land, plant, weed, or harvest. Events kove-s undertake involve reciprocal arrangements between lakou-s, other groups, or family units. When the host of a kove asks another kove or similar group to host a work party (a kove), moderate competition develops between the groups to "out perform" the other in calling in adequate laborers, and in providing correlative festivities, typically food, some kleren (a type of Haitian rum cut with a small amount of super-sweet syrupy sugar water and tea of "traditional" herbs added), and socially pointed call-and-response songs. As such, the nature of kove-s is to provide and multiply community solidarity, and to perform better continually.

------------------------------

How did I learn this? By participating in a kove--all of it, including the kleren! There was not other way to, I promise.

Of course, there can be many other correlates to my context. They very, very well might not exist in yours. And that is *fully* okay.

[ April 23, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Anthro ]

 

This is what I found about fermentation and yeast and all that stuff.

"Fermentation is typically initiated by adding 1 to 2 percent by volume of cultured yeast to the juice or must."

"Grapes are crushed to release the sugar in their juice. The juice naturally ferments when yeast comes in contact with the sugar in the grape juice. The result is alcohol and carbon dioxide."

"Fermentation: After removing the stems and skins that can produce bitterness and, if necessary, adjusting the acidity level of the juice, the mixture is transferred into another vat (usually stainless steel) for fermentation. Active yeasts are added and they go to work transforming the natural sugar into alcohol. To produce sweeter wines (Rieslings, Gewurtzraminers, some German wines), wine makers will either stop fermentation by cooling the wine or ferment completely, then add a sweet juice."


I never found anything that said, "grapes have yeast on their skins." Could you please provide your source.

For those that do believe drinking is okay. Do you do it while witnessing, attending church, in front of your family? Do you go to the local liquor store or how do you get it?

I am just curious. I find it sadfull that so many Christians drink alcohol.

Baptist Believer, I was thinking and I would like to review the prove(any) that you have.

 

I don't have to taste poison to appreciate that the label is correct. I don't have to drink alcohol in moderation or otherwise to know its affects. The general results are known.

Cheers,

Jim

 

If an opportunity arises I'll take it, even if I have a drink in my hand.

No, but then I don't drink any beverages in meeting.

Sure. In fact, my parents and I went out to dinner the other night, and we each ordered a drink.

Well, if I run out of something, I go to the ABC store, sure. But that doesn't happen often. I don't do a lot of drinking at home, or if I do, it's wine. I've had the same bottle of scotch for coming up on 5 years now. Most of the liquor I keep in the house, I've had for a few years.

 

If an opportunity arises I'll take it, even if I have a drink in my hand.

No, but then I don't drink any beverages in meeting.

Sure. In fact, my parents and I went out to dinner the other night, and we each ordered a drink.

Well, if I run out of something, I go to the ABC store, sure. But that doesn't happen often. I don't do a lot of drinking at home, or if I do, it's wine. I've had the same bottle of scotch for coming up on 5 years now. Most of the liquor I keep in the house, I've had for a few years. </font>[/QUOTE]So if the world is suppose to see Christ through us, what do you think they think when they see you go to church and then see you going into a store for alcohol? This to me is a stumblingblock.
Romans 14:13  Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

So could I enjoy a beer with another christian ?

 

Not THIS Christian! I refuse to take a chance on ruining my testimony or my credibility as a Christian. And that means NO drinking with a Christian OR a lost man.


Sue

 

The sources are: www.germanwine.de/english/guide/ferment.htm and a conversation I have had with a person. I expect there are other Internet sources as well.

 

Could you enjoy a coke with another Christian?
Could you enjoy a cappucino with another Christian?
Could you enjoy a cigar with another Christian?

The answer is "yes", even though all of these things have a potential for abuse. Just stay clear of the abuse of them. If you feel that the abuse of these is unavoidable, then refraining from them is prudent.

I'm not one to say that every Christian must refrain from alcohol, but I don't think a Christian brother or sister should be berated because they choose to refrain from such.