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Featured Duck River and Kindred Associations

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by tallred, Dec 9, 2016.

  1. tallred

    tallred New Member

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    Hey everyone, I am a "footwashing" Baptist in North Alabama and have been trying to find out more information on the Duck River and kindred associations. from what little I have found on here and Wikipedia they seem about identical to the New Hope Baptist Associations in GA and the now defunct NHBA in North AL. I am interested in finding some minutes of any of the associations in southern Tenn or North AL (Such as Mt Pleasant No. 1&2, etc) and as with many of these independent associations there is very little web presence. I would be interested in finding out where some of their churches are located so I could visit sometime on the Sundays my church doesn't meet. Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Travis Allred
     
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  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    One of our members is the author of the Wikipedia article on the General Association of Baptists. I'm sure he will be able to help.
     
  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Hi, Travis. Welcome to the Baptist Board. What association are you in? I've visited a few churches up that way, especially the New Hope Assn that was in the Morgan County area.

    "Duck River and Kindred" is, if I remember correctly, a name made up by the government to describe the correspondence of churches/associations that also meet annually as the General Associations of Baptists. There are several associations, including Mt. Pleasants #1 and #2 in Jackson & Dekalb Counties. Yes, they would be similar to the New Hope Associations. In fact, the Original Mt. Pleasant (another division of the two formerly mentioned, now defunct, I think) used to correspond with the Alabama New Hope, and maybe the one in Georgia as well.

    I may be able to help. I think I may have some extras copies of a few of these associations, and if not I should be able to get you in touch with someone who can. The Mt. Pleasant churches are in Alabama, and the rest of the associations are in Tennessee, with the exception of one church in Kentucky (at least the last I knew). I can tell you offhand a few of the churches -- Liberty & Chestnut Grove near Henagar, Antioch at Ider, Shiloh south of Fort Payne. Shady Grove at Dutton is from the Original Mt. Pleasant.

    Hope this helps. Let me know more specifically what you need, and if I find some minutes I'll send you a message. (Oh, and I should be able to find out their times of meeting.)
     
    #3 rlvaughn, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  4. tallred

    tallred New Member

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    Mr. Vaughn,Thank you for the information. The church I preach at is independent (Center Church in Lawrence County AL), but the church I am a member at in Haralson County, GA (Union Grove Baptist Church) is also an independent Baptist but was restarted by a former moderator of the GA new hope association. I visit Eva Baptist, East Flint Baptist in Vinemont, and Enmondfield in Addison fairly often. All of them are former "New Hope" Churches.

    It seems like the further west of the mountains you get, the harder it is to find churches similar to what I've mentioned. From what I can tell the Blount Baptist Association (SBC lists as one of theirs but that's about the only tie) seems pretty similar. There's an old time M.B association in Northwest AL called Big Bear Creek that I've preached in before. They have some similarities but have salaried Pastors, and are pre-millennial. I enjoy getting to go around and visit churches, so anything you can find on the ones in North AL or Southern Tennessee would be great. Thanks again
     
    #4 tallred, Dec 10, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  5. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Bro. Vaughn,

    I too thank you for your reply.

    I posted a while back that I was looking for information on the Missionary Baptists of Macon County (Lafayette) TN areas. My mom was reared there. And my dad was reared in Jackson County.

    I am somewhat of a Baptist theologian and historian. I would like to do some primary research into the "Mourners Bench" theology and practices of the Missionary Baptist up and down that Kentucky/Tennessee state line in and around the Cumberland Gap--Smith County, Jackson County, Macon County, Dekalb County, et al.

    But what I have found is that there was not any "educated clergy" and denominational records nor any "writing historians" in those churches. The most I could hope to find is individual church business meeting stuff. For most of the preachers were be-vocational and concerned with preachers that had been to "seminary school."

    Any help you can give to help get me started would be great?!

    Thanks for the help any time.

    rd
     
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    You're welcome. Seems I went by a Center Church in north Alabama (on a side road trip) one time when traveling from Henagar to Scottsboro to Huntsville to Florence. But I looked on a map and think this might have been more in the Woodville-Gurley vicinity, so wouldn't be the Center Church you're at. That church is, or used to be, in the Mt. Carmel Missionary Baptist Association. I have visited both East Flint and Eva churches, but haven't been there in a long time (probably 20 years). Bro. C. C. "Billy" Mosteller was still living at the time, and he died in 2003. Is Bro Philip Robinson still preaching there? One time while there I met a preacher from the Georgia New Hope -- Bro. Bane (or Bain), I believe.

    Being from Georgia you may be aware of some of the other associations there -- Coosawattee, Ellijay, Jasper, Pleasant Grove, Pleasant Valley. These are all "old-time footwashing" (or at least used to be) but they don't all correspond with one another and I'm not sure of the differences. There are a few more. The Good Samaritan, South River and Truevine are out of existence, I believe. Gilmer-Fannin seems to a sort of nominal SBC association like Blount.

    Yes, I think you will find that the further west you go, the fewer churches of this type you will find, especially in the southwest much more likely to be premillennial except for Primitive Baptists. I attended a revival at a Blount County BA church once when Bro. Philip was preaching there. It was more like the old time associations than it was like Southern Baptist. I am familiar with Big Bear Creek, but have never been in any of their churches. There is also a Yellow Creek Association in that area, but I think all their churches have joined the American Baptist Association. There are footwashing missionary Baptists in south Alabama, south Mississippi and the boot of Louisiana. They are premillennial but do not have salaried pastors. In fact, they call themselves "Faithway Baptists" to distinguish themselves from similar missionary Baptists who pay salaries. There are some churches and associations in northwest Arkansas (going under the name Regular Baptist) that are not premillennial, but they have gotten all split up over the divorce question.

    In northeast Alabama there are three other associations -- besides the Mt. Pleasants and Mt. Carmel -- that are old time footwashing Baptists. Two that go by the name Wills Creek United Baptist (one a little more modern than the other) and one named Town Creek. Wills Creek and Town Creek used to correspond with one another, and I think with Alabama New Hope.

    Not sure which Sundays you have available to visit, but here is what I have on the churches I mentioned above.
    Liberty at Henagar -- 2nd and 3rd
    Antioch at Ider -- 1st and 4th
    Chestnut Grove at Henagar -- Every Sunday
    Shiloh at Fort Payne -- Every Sunday
    I think Shady Grove at Dutton may be second Sunday, but they no longer have an association, so no minute book to look at. (If you were attend Liberty, Antioch or Shady Grove some of the people would know me. We also have in common Sacred Harp singing. I attended an association at Shiloh, but probably no one there remembers me, as would be true of Chestnut Grove. I stopped there once and talked briefly to someone who was mowing the yard.)

    I'm not really familiar with the geographical locations of the churches in Tennessee, and how far away they would be for you. Look like East Union churches are in Bledsoe County; Mt. Zion in and around Dekalb and Coffee Counties, Tennessee; Original East Union in Cumberland County; Union, several counties, including White and Warren; New Liberty didn't seem to mention counties, but the towns of Reagan and Lexington are mentioned.

    Will double-check this to be sure, but it looks like the only duplicate minute book I have is going to be the Duck River Association for 2003. If this is correct, I'll be glad to send it to you. Wouldn't want to part with any I don't have extras of, but could get info for you about churches for the minutes, or clerks' names so you can contact them.
     
    #6 rlvaughn, Dec 10, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I know you mention primary research and are interested in a specific area, but in this regard are you also aware of a master's thesis titled A Psychology of the Mourner's Bench as Found in the Jasper Baptist Baptist Association by Thomas Herbert Conley? (Southern Seminary, circa 1964). I've never seen it, but back in the day it was restricted to use with the author's permission. Not sure if that continued over the years, and since he died this year, I've not sure how it would be handled.

    I don't know about individual church records, such as minutes, but I am aware of several small historical books about churches in some of these associations of "old time missionary Baptists." Not sure how easy they are to come by. I've picked up some of them on eBay, and some might be located on Amazon. Here are some of the titles I have (not all of which are restricted to your area of primary interest):
    • History of Beech Grove Missionary Baptist Church, Eighty-Eight, Kentucky, 2005
    • History of New Bethel Missionary Baptist Church, Davidson County, Tennessee, 1794-1976
    • Concord Missionary Baptist Church: History, Declaration of Faith, Covenant, and Distinctives, (White House, TN, 1988)
    • History of Old Union Missionary Baptist Church, Warren County, Kentucky, 1795-1966
    • The History of the Polk County Missionary Baptist Association 1840 - 1979
    I may have others, but these are all I see right now. Except for the last one, these books usually tend to be small and might not be of that much use to you, but who knows. The Polk County Association is over in Missouri, but has had some correspondence with the middle Tennessee associations in the past. This is J. W. Haines's old book with an update added to it. If I remember correctly, it discusses some about the mourner's bench and why these churches withdrew from the Southern Baptist Convention.

    Finally, I don't have this one yet, but it might have something useful: Twentieth Century Baptists; biographies of over one hundred ministers. Also sketches in Enon, Wiseman and Siloam Baptist Association and an additional history of other churches, by Herbert Campbell Vanderpool and William Thompson Russell (Tompkinsville, Ky., Printed by Monroe County Press, 1962). Elder Vanderpool reissued this book (I think with updates or maybe just preachers who weren't in the first volume) in 1996, but WorldCat shows no copies of it in libraries. They only show 6 holdings of the older one.

    Unrelated Sidelight: The See-Vanderpool Discussion

    Will be glad to try. Any direction on what exactly might help the most would be great. I did look and not find any duplicate copies of these associations' minutes. Do you know Dr. Albert Wardin? He might have some of their minutes, and/or also be able to advise.
     
  8. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    P.S. to Rhetorician:

    Elder Vanderpool was largely responsible for organizing the Church History Research and Archives. They reprinted out-of-print Baptist history books and may have done some history of these churches. But I am pretty sure that the organization is now defunct. The last address I had was: 220 Graystone Drive, Gallatin, TN 37066.
     
  9. tallred

    tallred New Member

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    Bro. Robinson is no longer pastor at Eva, but is still a member there. Dustin Smith Pastors there now. Gary Driver is now at East Flint, and Crossroads has been without a pastor for 3 years. Friendship (not sure if you're aware of them ) used to be about three miles from Eva but closed its doors and a local SBC bought the building for their youth group.

    I am aware of the Center MB Church in Grant, AL that you mentioned, as their pastor did a revival in my area last winter.
    Concerning (Big) Wills Creek, their churches are pretty similar to New Hope but some (especially those in St. Clair County) have started adopting stances on conditional eternal security and falling away, but it just depends on the church.

    I know some of the old churches are about identical in practice to primitive Baptists (East Flint Creek, for example). They even use the Goble PB Hymn Books. If you could scan some of the minutes you have and send them to me that would be great. I have some minutes from Georgia New Hope (2013) and Big Bear Creek (2014). If I can locate them in storage, I'll be glad to scan them and send them your way.

    Last, but not least... How I became familiar with Georgia New Hope is a long story. Long story short, I grew up in Cullman County, attended a SBC as a kid and when I was in college started preaching. Fast forward a couple years later, I began my teaching career in Heflin (between Anniston and Bremen GA) and was looking for a church to attend. I was invited to a little old "footwashing" or "streaky headed" Baptist church and never looked back. Growing up in the SBC, I had never heard of a Baptist Church service with shouting, testifying, singing more than three songs, and usually more than one preacher getting up and preaching what the Lord gave them at the moment, lol! Anyway, it sparked an interest in Baptist History inside me and I have been amazed at how Baptists can vary from region to region.

    I live about 55 miles from the TN state line (Giles County) so I'm not too far away, considering for the past two years I typically drive 130 miles one way to Buchanan GA for church.

    Thanks for all the information you've given so far.
     
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I know Brother Gary, but not familiar with the name Dustin Smith. I remember driving past the Friendship Church building once. Seems they were already out of the association at that time. I was thinking I remembered East Flint using Lloyd's rather than Goble's but my memory may be off or they may have changed. I remember choosing the hymn"Poor and afflicted" when I was there. If you visit Liberty or Antioch or Shady Grove you will find they use Lloyd's (and sometimes The Sacred Harp) and sing a cappella. I think all the other churches use pianos. There is a Mt. Olive Church in Rome, Georgia that used to be in the Mt. Pleasant Association, but more recently changed to Pleasant Valley. When I was there (quite a while back) they used Lloyd's and The Sacred Harp, but all the other PV churches used piano. Not sure which Wills Creek is considered Big Wills Creek, but the church I visited was Bethlehem United Baptist Church near Gallant, Alabama. I think there were more churches in this WC association than the other one (and this was the group I considered a little more "modern" of the two).

    I'll see what I can do with scanning some minutes. I think I have recent ones of the Mt. Pleasants, but not so much of the others. I used to have a friend in McMinnville, Tennessee who kept me supplied with the Mt. Zion minutes, but he passed a year ago (and had previously gotten aged and not able to keep up correspondence) .
     
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I messaged someone at Shady Grove near Dutton. They now meet every Sunday, but their "big day" is First Sunday, on which they have fellowship meal after service. They start about 10 a.m., sing for about an hour, then have preaching.
     
  12. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Brother Allred, I got some minutes copied and am sending to you.

    All, there is one version of the origin of some of the Duck River and Kindred Associations in J. H. Grimes's History of Middle Tennessee Baptists (Chapter 13). He also has a chapter on Feet Washing (Chapter 16).
     
  13. elder_jeffery_endicott

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    A friend's daughter and her family recently had to move from ky to concord ga for work. can you give me any leads any of these old time footwashing churches near their area
     
  14. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Elder Endicott, I'm not familiar with Concord, Georgia. I found a Concord in Pike County on Wikipedia. Is this the right place? I don't know anything about churches in Pike County, but I'll see if I can inquire from someone who might know. Perhaps Brother Allred will know more.
     
  15. tallred

    tallred New Member

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    The closest churches of like Faith and order that I would know of would probably be around Carrollton, GA. One of my friends/mentors used to pastor a Church called "Cross Plains Baptist Church". they aren't on Google maps but are near a larger cross plains church on Cross Plains Road. They were at one time in an association that had had some churches I believe maybe over towards Newnan. Carrollton would probably be quite a drive, though, probably at least 50 miles. There may be some independent Baptist churches around that area, though.
     
  16. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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  17. tallred

    tallred New Member

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    Sure is, they meet 1st -4th Sunday at 10:30 and unless things have dramatically changed, they have a singing on the 3rd Sunday night at 5:00 (or 6:00). Bro. Ralph Ploof used to pastor there. A couple who attend church there Glen and Glenda (Horsley) Hill are from Alabama. Glenda's dad used to pastor Eva Church in AL back in the 50's or 60's
     
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Brother Rhetorician, I sent you a message that might be relevant to your research.
     
  19. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    I acquired Conley's thesis and read it over the Christmas break. Very interesting and fits all of the ethos and experience and what my mom related from my youth. Same Mourner's Bench just a different verse.

    rd
     
  20. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    What are the current restrictions on obtaining the thesis, if any?
     
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