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Economic Treason

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by KenH, Oct 1, 2004.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    You see, the point was - the Peruvian pastor comes and pastors your church at half of your salary - he won't be living in Peru, he'll be living in your house (if you live in a parsonage).

    That's the principle of how the FTAA will work.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    He he comes here and pastors this church at half my salary, he will have to get another job. My point was that he cannot pastor this church at half my salary.

    Your analogy was inadequate. "Exporting jobs" is increasing the living standard of people in their own country. Your analogy involves bringing someone from another country here and living of half of a salary.

    I don't think the FTAA is bringing people here to this country to work for very low wages, is it?
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Failing to secure our borders is.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Not necessarily, Ken. That is a fallacious argument.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    It is not. These illegal aliens are taking jobs at miniscule wages, in addition to the fact they are breaking the law as are their employees. You open borders people need to wake up and smell the coffee.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I am not an open borders person in the least. I think we ought to immediately suspend all education and health benefits for illegals. We ought to suspend all public services to them, except for basic fire and police protection. I think we ought to immediately prosecute those who hire them, rent apartments to them. I think they should be exported at their own expense.

    But that is not the issue here. The illegals are taking jobs that most Americans will not work. And if you say that we ought to pay higher wages for those jobs, remember the cost of living is going to go up and wages will be worth less. People too easily forget the domino affect of these things. Wages cost you, the consumer. People who want high wages complain when the cost of products go up and their higher wages go to pay for the basics of living.
     
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1) That's a bunch of globaloney.

    2) Then let the prices go up. :rolleyes:
     
  8. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    Big government: wage controls, tariffs, regulations controlling business transactions. Brought to you by Pat Buchanan, KenH and Pennsylvania Jim.

    It is both poor economics and poor history to argue that the Founders believed in financing government through the use of tariffs and, therefore, we should too. The Founders lived in an age of mercantilism and, for all my deep respect for their wisdom, they simply didn't know any better. Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was published in 1776, I believe, and the idea of free markets had not taken hold. To see such as Ken and Penn arguing for more government regulation and then arguing that they are the ones standing for "true conservatism" while they stand shoulder to shoulder with socialists insisting that our businesses not cross borders makes me wonder who is truly on the Right (though I do acknowledge their frequent stands on other conservative principles). If the CPUSA stands for telling businesses they can't make business decisions tells me they have no respect, and certainly no understanding, of free enterprise.


    Pastor Larry,

    if you say that we ought to pay higher wages for those jobs

    No, his argument is not simply that "we" ought to pay higher wages, it is that government should decide what is an acceptable wage, not the market.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Ha! I went to college at one of the centers of free enterprise advocacy in the South - Harding University.
     
  10. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    KenH,

    It's an excellent school, but did you take any economics courses? Hopefully, you learned some of the arguments of Ludwig von Mises, F.A. Hayek, and Henry Hazlitt, all of which should be recognizable names for a good free enterprise school.
     
  11. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    I've just read the Mark Moore article. It is an interesting argument and one that I've not seen before. I must admit to ignorance on currency valuation, but perhaps mild tariffs are a good counter-weight to a statist policy. But I think tariffs and protectionism are a poor and dangerous recourse to what are simply labor market differences, that we must equalize wage differences by making American consumers pay more. By doing so, you have effectively lowered income for Americans.
     
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Since I got a degree in accounting, obviously I took economics(both macro and micro) and finance courses to earn my degree. [​IMG]
     
  13. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    Did they teach you some good Austrian economics? My macro and micro professor was an outright Communist (actually he called himself an Menshevik, but he had a picture of Lenin in his office).
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I no longer consider myself a conservative advocate on economic issues. Realistically, we are not going to get rid of welfare, social security, medicare, get the government out of health care or out of education. We must simply keep them from causing any more damage to the economy as possible while fulfilling their stated purposes.

    I am not a conservative on trade issues because totally unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism damages the lives of way too many people and concentrates wealth and power in the hands of the elite.

    I am a conservative on budgetary issues as I believe we should balance the budget and pay off the national debt.

    I am a conservative on social and cultural issues because I am a Christian.

    I am a conservative on defense and foreign policy issues because I believe in putting the interests of my country ahead of those of other countries. I am a citizen of these United States, not of France, Germany, Russia, Israel, etc.
     
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The term was not used but my main economics teacher was very, very, very pro-free market. Harding University was about 90% Republican when I attended in the 1970s and I imagine it still is.
     
  16. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    I had the honor of being selected in high school to go to American Legion Boys State but the other honor presented was Freedom Forum at Harding, which I know I would have enjoyed much more. As I understand, FF's program included some education on the realities of communism.
     
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Moshe Dyan came and spoke at Harding one night in the 1970s. I made sure I stayed away from the auditorium that night. I was afraid some terrorist might blow it up.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Not at all. Not many Americans want to do those jobs at the wages that are being paid. That is a simple fact of life. If people were willing to work for those wages, then unemployment would be under 2% probably.

    Then people will complain about their salaries not paying for the basic necessities of life.

    You are in a catch 22 here. People already complain about rising prices. Remember the CPI? and how higher numbers don't work well for the economy? So you don't want prices to go up because then people can't afford things, the poverty level goes up, the number of people in poverty go up.

    There are many things I would not be able to afford if prices went up. We already do without a lot of stuff because of that. My wife goes to the market almost weekly at closing time to get vegetables for very little money to save having to buy them at full price in the stores. I think a lot of people in positions such as yours find it easy to say let prices go up, becuase your standard of living won't change much. I imagine you make pretty good jack. But there are a lot of people on the low end of society who do not have that luxury.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Can you explain how you rationalize this in these areas (accepting things you don't like, and trying to get them to cause less damage) but not in the presidential race (insisting that the "lesser of two evils is still evil"). This seems very inconsistent to me.

    You will accept less than the ideal in this situation because you recognize that it can't be changed right now, and yOu will work to minimize it.

    In the presidency, you will not accept less than the ideal becuase it cannot be changed and you will not work to minimize the damage.

    Can you explain how these two things are different?
     
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    President Bush does not consider it to be a priority to secure our borders. I heard his answer to Bill O'Reilly when asked about securing our borders.

    These open borders people really don't understand what's happening, or else they just don't care.

    Plus I have alternatives for voting for President Bush. There are no alternative programs to social security, medicare, welfare, etc., that I get to vote on.
     
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