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Featured Election,“For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God”

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alan Gross, Oct 26, 2022.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    where is it, again?
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, you don't believe Adam became Spiritually dead,
    when he sinned, and that his Spiritual death was Imputed to all his Posterity.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Adam and Eve died that day, as God said to Adam, ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Both Adam and Eve died that day. Not their bodies, nor their spirits, nor their souls died that day, but they did die that day. We call it "spiritual" death to make the distinction.
    An interpretion, not exactly how the text says it, but how we describe it.

    Adam's and Eve's descendents inherit that knowledge of good and evil and so that death at their conception.
     
    #64 37818, Oct 30, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2022
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Amen, This statement by Paul indicates that Election, Predestination and so forth, are actual Truths of the Gospel of Gods Grace he testified to Acts 20:24

    24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt if you even know what Jn 3:16 means. Jn 17:9

    9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
     
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I would disagree that God draws gentiles in the scripture. Why do I say that? Because a bible doctrine must be defined by the scriptures, not by someones preference. Gentiles do not meet in synogogues unless they adopt Judaism. The drawing was taking place during the earthly ministry of Jesus and it was not so they can believe that he is the savior but that he was the Son of God. That is the first thing any man must believe and those who heard him were not gentiles, but Jews. These, who came to him, he will give eternal life, he said. There was not a single person in the synagogue in Capernaum in John 6 who believed that Jesus Christ came to die for their sins and be buried and rise again from the dead. Not one, including his apostles, who were there and heard the whole exchange that day. Neither did they believe it after it was told to them and after Jesus had been crucified and had actually risen from the dead.

    This did not mean that 11 of these apostles, and possibly some others in that room that day, were not justified men, because they were justified men. The difference between men that day is what they believed in order to be justified men. They must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He taught the Jews that as the Son of God he was also the fulfillment of the MANNA type, the bread of life and that he shared the exact same properties as the manna that God sent to Israel in the wilderness to give them life. Later, those who simply believed him would understand that Jesus Christ must be in their bodies in order to be their life. This was realized after is death and resurrection when he was sent from heaven in Acts 2 in the person of his Spirit to live in them forever.

    Remember what Jesus said to these men later on the eve of his crucifixion.
    John 14:26
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 14:17
    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Here is an interesting fact. Paul, who was not saved until 37 AD, and not a member of the 12 apostles, but was chosen as the special apostle to the gentiles and in describing his charge from God, said the following.

    12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
    13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
    14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
    15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
    16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
    18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
    19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

    Words have meaning in the scriptures and Paul said his "Gospel of God" was the gospel of grace to gentiles. It was his calling to instruct the gentiles in salvation and how to please God in their speaking and their works. The gospel of God is the theme of the 13 letters he wrote during his ministry to gentiles. The important thing to know is that he never, not one time, described his ministry to us as God drawing us to Jesus Christ. He did not even use the word in his 13 letters. One cannot convince us that you have been drawn to God if there is nothing that says God draws you.

    A reason that God was drawing Jews to Jesus in the gospel accounts and not drawing gentiles is because of the object by which he was drawing them. Jesus said at point that he came to reveal the Father, a title for God that was relatively unknown in the OT times. However, the OT scriptures had said that God was going to send a Son through a virgin who would redeem Israel. Many things were written of this Son in the OT and for that reason those who had been given his words in writing, Israel, would have been fully aware of those promises to them through this Son of God. Israel had been studying those truths in the scriptures for 1500 years before Jesus, the Son of God, came in the flesh. With that in mind here is what Jesus said in Jn 6;

    Jn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
    46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48 I am that bread of life.

    These men were confused about who the Father of Jesus Christ is, V 42. Notice it is the ones in the crowd who has learned of the Father that are drawn to the Son, V 44-45. And how are they drawn? It is by learning of the Father in the OT prophets, something that gentiles did not have and would not be concerned about.

    Now, we as Christians glorify Jesus Christ and lift him up, and we should. It is proper and right to do so, but the Father and his work is on display in the gospel of John. I will give a couple verses to prove that but it is all through the letter and anyone can research it to see if it is true.

    Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    Do you see how the Father is the author of all this?

    Notice the reason John gave for writing his gospel;

    Jn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    That was the problem the Jews had in Jn 6. They thought Jesus was the son of Joseph.

    The character of God the Father is highlighted by his work through the Son in the gospel of John.

    John 5:17
    But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

    The gentiles are not drawn to Jesus Christ by their study of OT scriptures. The power of salvation for us, and now the Jews, is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Comparing the preaching of the apostles in the Acts when they preached to the Jewish audiences and when they preached to gentiles audiences will demonstrate this. Paul did not quote any OT scriptures to gentiles in Athens in Acts 17 but compare that to his sermon to a Jewish audience in Acts 14.You will see the contrast by reading his sermon to Jews in verses 14 - 48.

    The doctrines of the faith are confirmed to us in words. If one does not have the right words, one cannot understand the doctrines rightly. It is important to understand that "draw" is not a NT action of God. We must believe more than the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. We must believe he died for us, was buried, and raised again by God the Father, Ga 1:1.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    How many times in the OT did God call Israel his people? They were his and he had a right to give them to his Son if they came to him. Those who came for the bread are the ones God gave to him. This did not mean that those who did not come were no longer God;s. It just meant that they did not have the life that they would have had if they had eaten the flesh of the son of God and had drank his blood. They would eventually perish without the bread.

    The point is that he could not give eternal life while he was on the outside. He must be on the inside. When his Spirit was sent from Heaven after he had poured it out on the cross, resurrected and returned to heaven, then God sent it to Israel and when he was received he was their life. There is progressive understanding of the ways of God and the words of God are made known by his ways. Think.

    John 12:16
    These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

    You will be ashamed in eternity that you have treated the word of God as you have if indeed you treat it wrong.
     
    #69 JD731, Dec 7, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    JD since you are denying John 12:32 was for all then what do you do with John 3:14-18 or actually anything that Christ spoke. Your logic is flawed. Christ came to save the world Jews and Gentiles.
     
  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    John 12:32
    And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Do you see any difference in who is doing the drawing in these two verses?

    Most Bible students agree that it takes two witnesses to establish a doctrine.
    And I agree that Christ came to save the world, Jew and gentile, but not at the same time. There was a plan.

    BTW, my post to you was not intended to be a criticism of your comments, just another opinion. I laid out my reasoning on the subject.
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that the Father and Christ are one. What does 1 Timothy 2:3-4 tell us?
    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    God has a plan that will be worked out through time. You seem to think that only Jews at this time and Gentiles at this time but that is not what the bible shows. God does not look at those He saves as Jew or Gentile but rather as His creation. Christ came to save sinners, the lost. Were any saved by being a Jew or a Gentile, NO. All are saved the same way through Christ.

    I am curious as to why you would think that John 12:32 would not apply to gentiles? How do you understand John 3:14-18? Was that only meant for the Jews?
     
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    When someone is drawn thats their conversion experience, so they are saved by the drawing, the all is all the saved elect from all nations. So if you think someone of the all in Jn 12:32 can be lost, you are denying the power of Christ friend.
     
  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    That is not an answer to my question, it is ignoring it and moving on. So I will repost it and offer some commentary.

    The object of the drawing is different in these two instances. In John 6, it is the Father drawing the Jews to Jesus Christ as the promised seed of the woman and the fulfillment of the OT prophecies concerning his coming into the earth. In John 6 God is giving an object lesson that Jesus is the bread from heaven that must be eaten. He must be inside the body for them to have life. In John 12 it is Jesus drawing the Jews to the Father by his cross, where he is reconciling God and man by taking the sin away. He is the only way to the Father and if they get to the Father it will be by him. He is the door, but not before he is lifted up to die for the sins of the Jews, and by extension, the sins of the whole world.

    The very first thing that happened after the cross and resurrection and ascension of this physical man, Jesus Christ, was that he sent himself back in the person of the Spirit, who resided in him during the whole course of his earthly life. He sent the omnipresent Spirit, who himself is God, in such abundance that it was like water raining down from heaven that immersed Israel first, and then the whole world. Water, something that all living creatures must have to live, and the abundance of the water on the earth, makes it free for the drinking. Anyone and everyone may drink this water and live. They may open their mouths and drink him in. God always sets the physical to illustrate the spiritual truths. The symbol for the life giving Spirit of God in the scriptures is water.

    John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

    John 16:7
    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    What is the first thing that happened for the Jews after the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven as recorded in the Acts? Here it is.

    Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Peter, speaking by the Holy Ghost called this an immersion of Israel; in the Holy Ghost. That is what he said.

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Now Israel, (this was the annual festival of Pentecost when all Israel were gathered in Jerusalem according to the Mosaic Law) were commanded to be baptized in water because symbolically the water cleansed the nation (an outward testimony of obedience to God) while receiving the Spirit by faith (the inward testimony) gave them life. This is a national and family message. I am not sure why this water baptism of this nation is so hard for people to accept because this will be the third time the nation has been called upon to be baptized in water, once each with each member of the Godhead. You may read about it for yourself. Once when God birthed them physically as a nation in Egypt and the Red Sea, once when Jesus Christ began his earthly ministry in Mark 1, and once when the Spirit of God was sent to birth this nation as his collective son by indwelling them all. It seems strange to me that no one will accept this as being true.

    In Acts 7 the response by the nation through the rulers was to reject the Spirit of God and they dead sure refused the water baptism. The individuals of Israel who obeyed were incorporated into the church as the remnant who believed, but because it was intended by God that Israel would be born again and become the "house" (family) that Jesus built, (read Hebrews 3 right here) God then baptized the world ten years later "so his house may be full," (read the parables in Lk 14 right here) and so he accepted anyone, including gentiles, on an individual basis who would come and receive his Spirit by faith in him. I have Bible on this in many places. In Romans 11 we are told he accepted the gentiles because Israel refused to believe in him. That is what we are told. Whether you believe it is up to you.

    The pivot point to including the gentiles was in AD 40, ten years after the door of faith was opened to the Jews in Acts 2, when God opened the door of faith to us through Cornelius, the Italian. The same deal occurred for us as it had for the Jews and I encourage you to read about it in Acts 10 and Acts 11. Meanwhile I will quote a couple verses that should affirm this.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    There is no longer a baptism in water before receiving the Holy Ghost because a nation is no longer in view but a body of Christ. However, the baptism by the Holy Ghost , the pouring out from heaven the Spirit on the whole world in such abundance that everyoe and anyone may drink is in view here.

    Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (the gentiles) the like gift (the Holy Ghost = eternal Life) as he did unto us (Jews), who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    This will continue for a set time known only to God when he will pivot back to purging Israel of her unbelievers with a baptism of fire, called the great tribulation, and will keep all his promises in his covenants with the nation of Israel and save them collectively as one man.

    Continued:
     
  15. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Continued:

    Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

    14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Speaking to gentiles Ro 11:13, Paul says this about Israel the nation and people.

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    What amazes me is that you guys do not apply logic and reason to God and what he says and reveals of his mysteries. You look at God as if he is prosecuting his purposes under the principle of his sovereignty when he is actually doing it under the principle of his providence. Big difference.

    This gives men responsibility and when they disobey it does not thwart the purposes of God because he is able to accomplish all things according to his own will.

    I will answer your questions to me later.

    Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
     
    #75 JD731, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF so since you say all that are drawn are saved you are a universalist. Christ draws all but all are not saved that is biblical.
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    No you the universalist, only all the saved are drawn, lost people are not saved/drawn.
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF you need to read the bible more and your calvinist commentaries less. No one is saved by being drawn, they have to believe in Christ Jesus and are saved by the grace of God because they believe.
     
  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously Adam knew intellectually it was wrong to eat the fruit or it would not be said that he was not deceived. This meant he had to have knowledge and forethought and he must have acted in self will and independent of God, who dwelt in him in the person of the Spirit. He became a god that day. The spiritual death that occurred was the separation of the Spirit of God from his person. This separation changed him from being in the image of God, a trinity, soul, body, and the Spirit of God, to being in his own unique image of soul and body. This knowledge of good and evil then is speaking of an experiential knowledge of good and evil and not merely an intellectual knowledge of good and evil.

    This makes perfect sense to anyone who gives it some thought. The second man and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, was also a trinitarian man. He was a body and soul and John said in Jn 1, that "in him was life, and the life was the light of men." In Jn 3, John the Baptist said of him, "God gave not the Spirit by measure unto him." In Romans 8 the scriptures say that the Spirit is life. And in Acts we are told the Spirit is God. Adam was formed with the image of God, which simply means he was a tri-partite man.

    I do not have the space here to quote all the verses that tells us that God is renewing the trinitarian image of Adam's race by restoring man to a trinity through the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, but here is just one.

    2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
    18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    How? By the Spirit of the Lord.

    Gen 5 tells us that Adam has a different image than what he was created with. It is not the image of God. It is body and soul. Bi-partite.

    1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

    Jesus Christ, the God-Man, had a soul, a body, and the Spirit. Tri-partite. He is the only man who has ever been born that way. On the cross, he, like Adam, and for the same reason died spiritually and physically, meaning the Spirit departed from him when sin was placed on him and he was left as a bi-partite man, dying for all men and since the Spirit is the light, but had departed, the earth turned dark. Three hours later, he gave up his human spirit, his soul and the separation of his soul and body was physical death. All 3 parts of Jesus Christ were separated on the cross that day, finishing his work of bearing our sins in his own body on the tree, and his body was put in a tomb, the Spirit went back to God who gave it, and his soul went to paradise in the center of the earth.

    But the Bible says that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead never to die again. This means his soul was reunited with his body and his body glorified and made fit to abide in heaven and in a wholly different environment than here and the Spirit gave him the power to come out of the grave by indwelling his body and quickening it (Rom 8:11). The Bible also says that Jesus Christ at this event of his resurrection was the "firstborn" from the dead. It also says he is the firstborn of many brethren.

    The wonderful thing about all of this is that God has promised that everyone and anyone who will simply come in repentance and faith he will give the Spirit of Christ as his gift to all who will trust what his Son has done for us. He can do that because Jesus Christ in his death on that cross has made it possible to renew the trinatarian image , meaning God can now inhabit the tabernacle of our souls, which is our bodies, because he has taken the sin away and replaced it with righteousness, another description of the Spirit. This is a new birth that makes us children of God and when we receive the new body for our soul and Spirit to dwell in, all connections with Adam will be eliminated.

    What a gospel and praise God for what he has done for us. God can save us from the awful penalty of our sins because of him, and only because of him.
     
    #79 JD731, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No, God did not in that way.
    No. Isaiah 43:10.
    Again no. Adam wasn't indewlt to begin with.
    You rant.
    I stopped reading there.
     
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