Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

I am amazed at the depth of how well you have psychoanalyzed the character of Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers.
You are a very wise man.

 

John 6:45 is consistent with John 6:37,39, and 44. To me the verse clearly expresses sovereign grace and is a reference to Isaiah 54:13. I use this verse a lot to argue my position.

The "they all" are the "all that the Father giveth me" (John 6:37) and the ones from the set of "no man can come" that the Father "draws" (John 6:44).

Verse 45 is a support and explanation for verse 44. "Taught of God" does not mean "taught about God." It means "taught from God." "Learned of the father" does not mean "learned about the Father." It means "learned from the Father." Both God and Father in this verse are in the genitive case, which is possessive. Also, the taught and the learned here are parallel and essentially synonymous. Those who learn are not a subset of those who are taught. These are one and the same. This verse makes a striking case for sovereign grace. God the Father teaches a certain people and all whom He teaches come to Him.

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws (helkusē: "drags") him. The one whom the Father draws will be raised up at the last day. Immediately following this statement, Jesus supports it with a quote from prophesy about Yahweh teaching His children. This cannot be anything other than an effectual drawing.
Those whom the Father draws He teaches.
Those whom the Father teaches learn.
Those who learn, the Father gives to the Son.
Those whom the Father gives to the Son come to the Son.
Those whom the Father gives to the Son will never be lost.
Those who come to the Son believe on Him.
Those who believe on Him will never be cast out.

This is an unbreakable chain of God's grace.

I have said many times before that regeneration and sealing are two different things. The Holy Spirit seals those that are His. The Holy Spirit makes them His through regeneration.

I have yet to be convinced that sovereign grace is the "opposite" of what the Scriptures teach.

Faith is the channel through which grace comes upon man. That does not mean that the faith originates from man as a synergistic contribution.

No. Read the verse carefully.

τη ("[the]") γαρ ("for") χαριτι ("by grace") εστε ("are") σεσωσμενοι ("ye have been saved") δια ("through") της πιστεως ("[the] faith")

Faith is the channel through which grace comes. Grace is the causative agent here and it is in the dative case. Faith is in the genitive case, making it possessive. God gives grace through the channel of faith which one possesses.

Now, how does one possess faith?

2 Thessalonians 3:2 says "for all men have not faith." In the Greek it is ου γαρ παντων η πιστις or literally "for not of all is [the] faith." The word pastwn is pas in the genitive case. This clearly states not all possess the faith. This faith is the channel ("dia") by which God gives grace.

Now, let's look at Philippians 1:27-29:

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Phi 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of [from] God.
Phi 1:29 For [because; how this is realized] unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

These verses say that the same gospel is a token of perdition to certain adversaries as well as salvation from God to the Philippians. Paul emphasizes that the salvation is of God. God is in the genitive case denoting either possession or source. However, the preposition apo ("off/out of/from") means that the genitive case denotes source.

Paul then explains in the next verse how this salvation is from God. He says for (or because) "unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ... to believe on him." The word given is the Greek word εχαρισθη, which is the verb form of grace. This word has the same root as grace in Ephesians 2:8. Literally, Paul is saying "unto you it is graced." What is "graced"? What is the direct object of εχαρισθη? They are the words πιστευειν (pisteuein) and πασχειν (paschein). Both of these are infinitives (which always function as nouns). In the Greek (and in English) these are grammatically direct objects of "graced". In other words, the salvation comes from God in this way: unto us He graces us to believe on Him and to suffer for His sake.

I hope I have provided some insight for you to rethink that accusation.

 

I wasn't defending Revmitchell, but calling him, or any other brother in Christ a liar is going too far.

I am certainly no theologian, like many here are, and I will probably never have the biblical knowledge they have, but one thing I think is the problem.

When we have to set love aside to defend a biblical doctrine, something is wrong. There are probably as many true believers in Christ who reject Calvinism as there are who accept it. This should cause the one defending Calvinism to at least entertain the possibility that they could be wrong.

Anytime we, on both sides, allow our emotions (especially pride) to override our love for the brethren we have headed in the wrong direction.

 

Excellent post. :thumbs:

 

Funny how AsteriskTom posted his sermon declaring what he believes to be the aboslute truth and sparking off nine pages of back and forth between the two camps and has yet to responded in any way.

 

Yes, it is true that all who come to Christ are drawn. No non-Cal disagrees with this whatsoever. This is why it does not rob God's sovereignty to respond to God's drawing. If he did not draw and call us to begin with, we could not respond. So if we come, God still gets all the credit. This is a concept Calvinist's cannot seem to grasp.

But the scriptures say Christ draws all men, not just the elect.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This is another case where Calvinism teaches the opposite of scripture. This verse says Jesus will draw all men to him, a small child could easily understand this verse. But Calvinists understand this not to be all men, but only a few select persons.

Well, you may say that, but you have not one verse of scripture to support this. You did not learn this from scripture. Even Old Regular and others here understand regeneration to mean being born again. Calvinism teaches that a man is regenerated to have the ability to understand the scriptures, it teaches that regeneration gives the gift of faith to believe the word of God. But this is the opposite of what the scriptures teach. The scriptures teach that a man is born again or regenerated by the word of God, and that a man receives the Holy Spirit after believing the word of God.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

So again, Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what the scriptures say.

What kind of logic is that? If God gives man faith, then that man is receiving faith through grace. But the scriptures say grace comes through faith, the exact opposite of what you believe.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You cannot enter into God's grace except through faith. But you believe the opposite, that God gives grace which gives man the ability to have faith. How can a man receive a gift from God and that not be grace? Also, note the direction shown in this verse, it says "we" have access "into" grace. It is not showing grace coming to us, it is showing we are moving into grace. You reverse this.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, we are saved by grace, but we only have access to God's grace through faith. This is what the scriptures clearly show in several places, but you teach the exact opposite.

So faith is the channel? Then which do you come to first, faith or grace? You come to faith first, it is your passageway, your channel, your bridge to grace. Again, you reverse the order, the scriptures say we enter into grace through faith, not that we receive faith through grace.

What the scriptures teach:

Faith -------> Grace

What Calvinism teaches:

Grace -------> Faith

If I said I drove from New York to New Jersey through the Lincoln Tunnel and asked you if I came to the Lincoln Tunnel or New Jersey first, you would have no trouble answering correctly. But with the scriptures you reverse this concept to support your doctrine. Once again an example of teaching exactly the opposite of what the scriptures say.

I could go on and on showing examples of how Calvinism and the Doctrine of Grace reverses what the scriptures say.

The scriptures say God is not willing that any man should perish, your doctrine says God is quite willing to let the vast majority of mankind perish.

The scriptures say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, your doctrine teaches that he does. I have seen Calvinists say this on numerous occasions.

Doesn't matter, I have noticed that Calvinists and DoGs are impervious to what the scriptures say. Their understanding is dyslexic, understanding scripture to say the exact opposite of what it is easily understood to say.

 

Great definition of election! Also in agreement as mentioned about the necessity of reconciling God’s decision with foreknowledge; the free will response of man does not discount the sovereignty of God or require the man to be agreement to the doctrines of pre-deterministic selective grace, in fact, to do the later makes the Gospel of none effect, the promises meaningless, and implies a characterization to God which would attribute evil to Him which is all far from what the elect should intimately and humbly recognize of our good and loving God of Grace, truth, and judgment. (Deut 32:4)

 

That's ok Tom. Others can do your dirty work for you. Anyone can make their declaration of what they believe to be the truth and then sit back and watch the fireworks. Personally, I think it fits within the parameters of being a troll.

 

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Which occurs first here, repentence or receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?

But Calvinism teaches the opposite, it teaches that a man cannot repent unless he receives the Holy Spirit first. Again, the exact opposite of scripture.

 

There are a lot of people on both sides of the soteriological fence that can contribute great and meaningful discussions to this thread and others like it.
The problem is when people like one of the posters here start making comments that makes one side look like scheming, devious, and a deliberate false teacher while he is the one who has all the keys of knowledge and understanding, or at least it is his side of the fence that is really in service to Christ.
That usually takes my goat, personally, and I don't care which side of the fence makes those statements.
Whether you are a Calvinist, an Arminian, a Semi-Pelagian, a Pelagian, a Doctrine of Gracer, or a Doctrine of No-gracer doesn't make a difference in as far as the blood of Christ is concerned and in as far as your eternal redemption is concerned.
There is NOT ONE SOUL here on this board, or anywhere else, that can point to one Scripture that shows that Christ gave up His life on the condition that one be either of those first, or become one of those first.
Therefore either side portraying the other as theologically bumbling idiots is uncalled for.
But if that's how we wish to conduct these discussions, fine with me, let's bring it on, as rough as can be.

 

the ministry of John the Baptist is proof that repentance is needed first.

John came to prepare the way for King of Kings.

He did this by preaching a baptism of repentance. One must repent in order to be ready for the gospel.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus preached repentance then belief.

Repentance is a change of mind toward God. To repent of sins is to change one's mind about sin and it's effects. So one must change their mind about God, about sin and then they are able to hear and listen to the gospel.

 

Well, I'm pretty positive it is me that you are referring to. Hey, that's fine, I have been accused of being a heretic and blasphemer in the past, didn't bother me one bit, I did't go running to a moderator or administrator. I present scripture, not the writings of men. I tell you how I understand them. You know, it's funny, none of those who disagree with me ever come back and show me how I'm wrong on the scripture.

I don't have a problem with you believing what you will. That is your right, and I believe in freedom of conscience and belief. But if I think it disagrees with scripture, I am going to say something. We are told to contend for the faith.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I spent several months debating Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers here. I did not enjoy it at all. It finally quieted down and I left it alone. Then this fellow comes and writes this post on Election which is really a post about Calvinism. I see Calvinists as very aggressive promoting this doctrine of their's. I do not see that same aggressive behaviour from non-Cals, if you do, then show me.

It is obvious I am not going to change your mind, and that is OK. But there may be others who do not know the scriptures well that need to see an opposing view.

That said, I hardly think I understand all the scriptures. I read almost everyday, and nearly everyday encounter scripture I do not understand. I just pray and ask God to help me understand.

But this doctrine of yours is not hard to show error. I have probably presented hundreds of verses that easily show it so.

If Calvinists are going to keep pushing this doctrine, I am going to resist it.

 

We are told to contend for the faith against heretics, blasphemers, and others who will subvert the gospel of Christ.
Are we subverting the gospel of Christ as far as you are concerned ?
Are those who agree with Calvin, and those who hold to the Doctrine of Grace, mindless imbeciles, which is how you portray them in your very illustrative language ?
The very first time you started posting here, I knew already you are that type who think anyone who holds to the Doctrine of Grace is a brainless person.
Your type reminds me of my former pastor who in Bible college insisted that John McArthur is a heretic who does not believe in the efficacy of the blood of Christ, and warned that any graduate of the college who becomes an electionist will have his name stricken off the roster.
His animosity towards McArthur drove me to listen, and be converted to the Doctrine of Grace eventually.
I hope you learn to phrase your words in such a way as to reflect your profession of being a follower of Christ, especially when it comes to fellow believers.
I know nothing about you and would like to believe that you're simply just talking too fast ahead of your brain.

 

What you do not seem to be grasping is what I have exegeted from several verses in John 6. You seem to quote selectively from people's full posts and try to rip on those small sections without addressing the actual support in those posts for the quoted sections. Several verses from John 6 that I referenced, exegeted, and summarized seem to support an unbreakable chain of sovereign grace. Please prove that the verses in John 6 do not mean that the exact ones (all of them) who are drawn come to the Son and are raised at the last day.

Why is it that John 12:32 is such a predictable knee-jerk answer to John 6:44? Despite the meaning of the Greek word for draw helkuo, despite how it is used in the context of John 6, despite what every instance of helkuo demonstrates throughout the New Testament, the answer to explain away and ignore the strong message of John 6:44 and its context is simply John 12:32 and what one thinks that it says. "All men" in John 12:32 somehow must mean every single individual human being, and therefore draw (helkuo) cannot mean what it clearly means in the Greek.

Let's look at the context of John 12:32 to test your interpretation:

First, the word men is in italics. This means that it was added by the translators. Jesus said that He would draw "all" unto himself. What did He mean by "all"? Are those who were already suffering in Hades (like the rich man) when Jesus made this statement part of the "all"? When Jesus was lifted up on the Cross, did He draw them unto Himself? If the draw in John 12:32 relates to the draw in John 6:44 (which I believe it does), then will those who were in Hades going to be "raised up at the last day"? I think not! Therefore, the "all" in John 12:32 excludes ones who were already in Hades.

Second, many verses can provide meaningful context for John 12:32, including ones from the same chapter.

What did Jesus mean when He said that He would draw "all" unto Himself? He meant that He would fulfill prophecy that the Gentiles as a group would seek Him and that the Jews as a nation would reject Him. Moreover, He would call a people from every nation and ethnicity, not just a nation of Israel. This does not mean every single individual human being who ever lives. It could not, otherwise you would have to believe that every single person at some time in his life becomes aware of Who Jesus Christ is and what He did on the Cross. If such were the case, then why would we need to evangelize? If everyone at some point in his life obtains all the information he needs for salvation, why is there a need to present this information? The Gospel is very "Calvinistic."


continued...

 

Third, this understanding is prevalent throughout New Testament Scriptures.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.