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Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Dec 14, 2009.

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  1. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    I have explained this to you several times before. I believe that one is regenerated by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit regenerates someone through the Word of God. He does not "try" to do so, but He actually does do so. The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to illuminate one's heart to the truth of the Gospel in regeneration [see Galatians 1:15-15]. Therefore, the command and need to preach the Gospel and the sovereign election of God are in perfect harmony.


    Nope. Everyone who is regenerated is so by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to regenerate people. He does not wait for people to make themselves "regeneratable."

    My "logic" comes from a careful analysis of the verse in English and Greek and comparing it with other verses such as Philippians 1:29 (which you so conveniently ignored in this reply.

    No, I do not reverse this. Notice the "wherein we stand." The verse is talking about those who are already saved. Faith is the channel through which God gives His grace and faith is also the channel and means by which we can access the grace of God in our lives. We can come boldly unto the throne of grace. We do not need to keep the Law to have access, we have the access "into this grace wherein we stand" through the channel of faith.

    I have emphatically stated that we have access to grace through faith as well. You just understand this channel of faith differently. Faith is not the causative agent here; grace is. Faith does not make one "graceable." Grace makes one "faithable." Faith is the channel (dia) through which God gives grace. Much like one putting oil in an engine. The oil is the grace and the funnel is the faith--the channel. God gives grace through the channel of faith. Although the funnel "comes out" of the engine, it was placed there by the one providing the oil and was put there for the purpose of providing oil. God gives grace and He does so through faith. Although we possess and exercise faith unto justification, we have it because God gave it to us for the purpose of grace.

    We receive faith from grace (See Philippians 1:29), and we receive grace through faith (See Ephesians 2:8).

    It's more like this:

    Grace -------> Faith -------> Grace, Grace, Grace

    No, you are not understanding what I was saying. You also need to look at Philippians 1:29 and explain to me how I am reading it incorrectly in both the Greek and the English.

    I could go on and on explaining how you are misunderstanding what I am saying. ;)

    You are taking 2 Peter 3:9 out of context.
    The reason that God is longsuffering in holding back His second coming is that He is not willing that any of His people would perish. He will come again when all of His people come to repentance.

    You are taking this one out of context, as well.
    God had no pleasure in destroying His people Israel for their sins. However, He still did so to bring them back to Himself as He did throughout their history.

    I have done my dead level best here to understand the Scriptures, to study the English and the Greek, and to explain them to the best of my ability. Please do not accuse me of being either ignorant or outright belligerent to the Scripture.

    Sometimes one can obtain the incorrect meaning from what is "easily understood" by missing the context of a passage in question. I have tried my best not to take anything out of context.
     
    #101 AresMan, Dec 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2009
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, we are almost in agreement now. I also believe a person is regenerated or born again by the word of God. However, I disagree that it is imposed on a man. I would say that the Holy Spirit "tries". The scriptures clearly show a man can resist the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    Once again, Calvinism teaches exactly the opposite of the scriptures. The scriptures say some men resist the Holy Ghost, while Calvinism says God's grace is irresistable.
     
  3. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    . . .a tulip by any other name would smell so. . .
     
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    This says it is given to us to believe, not forced upon us to believe. Salvation is a gift. A gift can be refused. A man can ask a girl to marry him and offer her an engagement ring, that is a gift. She can refuse.

    Taxes on the other hand are not a gift and cannot be refused. Try refusing to pay your taxes and see what happens to you. Taxes are imposed.

    Do you consider taxes a gift? After all, they are given to you by our government.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    So, you are saying that God does not have pleasure in destroying the Jews only? This makes God partial, something that God forbid the Jews to do, and which many times God says he is not in the scriptures.

    2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    The scriptures say God will have all men to be saved, Calvinism teaches God only wills to save a select few.

    Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    As a former Calvinist myself, I doubt you will convince any Calvinist to change their views by arguing with them. They see the scriptures from their perspective and cannot be persuaded by you all. They themselves must be willing to objectively approach the scripture with FULL understanding of the scholarly "non-Calvinistic" interpretations of their many proof texts. They are so used to talking with the so call "Arminians" of today, they believe we are all idiots who simply refuse to acknowledge clear biblical teaching just because it is too difficult to accept. Few even know true "Arminianism" or its arguments. Few have read, much less really studied, the works of Arminius or other scholarly non-Calvinists. Those who have, typically do so with the premise to discredit or disprove them and thus never give their arguments full vent. It is an unfortunate thing, but having been there, I know you are only hardening them further in their error.
     
  7. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    Why does one have to be subverting the Scripture to believe either Calvinism or non-Calvinism (I really am not a arminian)?

    I can disagree with Calvinism without thinking they are heretics or liberals. They are just believers who love Jesus but whose understanding of particular parts of Scripture are different than mine.

    We don't have to be identical twins to be brothers.
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Tom,

    If your reply was directed toward me...

    First, I never called Calvinists "heretics or liberals," nor did I say they were "subverting the Scriptures."

    I said they were in error and that arguing with them, in my estimation, only hardens them further.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You are probably correct, I haven't seen one Calvinist change their views no matter how much evidence is presented from scripture.

    Could you explain what brought you out of Calvinism? That would be very interesting to know.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    He was converted from truth to error :)tongue3:), like everybody else will be converted to either truth from error, or from error to truth, and that's the way it is in this fallen world for us until we all get to glory and have the Lord tell us Himself that He elected us from before the foundation of the world and you Arminians are sent to polish the gold in heaven for a 10th of eternity as chastisement.:tongue3::tongue3:
     
  11. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    No, it was not aimed at you. It was aimed at some on both sides who have elevated their system to the level of a fundamental.

    We have folks in our church who are both sides of this area. I preach what I believe is the truth. Those who disagree can talk with me over a meal, but both of us try to talk to our waiter and win him/her to Jesus. Niether view changes our committment to evangelism.
     
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    That is impossible, for you believe God's grace is irresistable. There is no way he could be converted from truth to error if your doctrine is true.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    How can one repent of their sin unless they are first convicted of their sin and believe that Jesus Christ has the power to forgive their sins? Faith must precede repentance.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    it is possible, the guys at Hebrew 6 were, and so were a number of others. you have Alexander the coppersmith, which, of course, being as your theology is based on human action and works, you will not accept.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Winman

    I have asked you numerous times but you always avoid giving an answer. What is it about you as a person that caused you to accept the offer of Salvation in Jesus Christ while others reject that Salvation?

    Is it that you were a better person than those who reject Jesus Christ?

    Is it that you are more intelligent than those who reject Jesus Christ?

    Is it that you are more learned than those who reject Jesus Christ?

    Is it that God gave you more grace to believe than those who reject Jesus Christ?

    Is it that you recognized the gravity of your sin than those who reject Jesus Christ?

    I would sure appreciate an answer and I am sure that all those whom you say reverse the meaning of Scripture would also.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    ORB:

    I have found in dealing with many Arminians that they cannot bring themselves to admit that there was nothing good in them, really, that made them come to Christ.
    Even Arminius believed that no man is able to come to God except it were God first who made the move towards man, not verbatim, but that's the drift.
    So I wouldn't really expect a straightforward answer.
    what he will do is try and twist your questions to make you look uninformed and deviously evil....bwahahahahahaha!!!
     
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What was John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness? And why? Did the Jews he was preaching to have faith?
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Scripture states

    Mark 1:4. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Matthew 3:6. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

    Obviously some believed else they would not have confessed their sins. You cannot confess sin unless you first understand that you have sinned. We can only understand that we have sinned when we understand that we are accountable to God.

    It should be noted that the above Scripture preceded the ministry of Jesus Christ. John the Baptist was the fore runner to Jesus Christ. Scripture states that John was preaching that the Kingdom of God was at hand; it does not say at this point what he said about Jesus Christ. However we read in Mark 1:7, 8

    7. And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
    8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    John preached the baptism of repentence for the remission of sin but the ultimate remission of that sin depended upon the death of Jesus Christ.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Winman

    I am sitting here twiddling my thumbs!
     
  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Am I a better person than those who reject Christ? Absolutely not, in fact I am worse, because I know the difference between right and wrong, many unbelievers do not. So when I sin it is a more serious offense.

    Am I more intelligent? I think I am a pretty intelligent fellow, I had a 4.0 average in college, but I've met plenty of people more intelligent than myself. Intelligence is relative, I understand music, I have played an instrument for nearly 40 years, but I don't know how to bake a cake.

    Am I more learned? Depends on what subject you are talking about. I know a bit about some subjects, other subjects I know nothing about.

    Did God give me more grace? Yes and no. God is good to the good and evil. However he only sheds grace on those who believe. So yes, I have received more grace than an unbeliever.

    Is it that I recognized the gravity of my sin more than others? Yes. This is the answer to the matter. When the scriptures told me I was a sinner I believed it. I recognized I was not good enough to earn my way to heaven. I recognized there was a penalty for my sin.

    The unbeliever does not believe this. They believe themselves good and capable of earning their way to heaven. They reject the truth of the scriptures. Go down the street and ask people if they think they are going to heaven. I have done this and I can't remember even one person that said no. Every person I have ever asked said they thought they were going to heaven. And when I asked why they always gave the same answer, they said they were a good person and so they knew God would let them into heaven. So people do not want to admit to themselves they are a sinner in need of a saviour.

    But admitting I am a sinner does not earn my ticket to heaven. Some Muslims probably admit they are sinners, that doesn't mean they will get to heaven.

    What many fail to recognize is that a person's good works aren't a problem. Good works are good. But no matter how many good works you do, you must still pay for your sins. Let me give you an example.

    Let's say you lived all your life as a good law abiding citizen. Then one day you went into a bank and stuck a gun in the teller's face. You rob the bank and flee. The police catch you and you are brought before the judge at your trial.

    You say to the judge, "Your honor, you ought to let me go. You see, I have been a good law abiding citizen all my life. Robbing this bank is the one and only wrong thing I have ever done. I have done far more good than bad."

    Laugh, but that is how people think. They think if they do more good than bad that that will earn them into heaven. But that is not how the law works here on earth, and that is not how the law works in heaven.

    No, that judge is going to say, "It doesn't matter that you have lived as a good law abiding citizen all your life, you robbed the bank and that is against the law, I sentence you to ten years in prison!"

    That is how the law works. It doesn't matter how much good you do, you must still pay for any wrong you do. And that is how it is with God. If you lived a perfectly holy life but yet tell one single lie, then you must pay for that sin, and the penalty is death.

    But admitting you are a sinner will not get you to heaven. No, you must believe on Christ to get to heaven. Judas Iscariot came to realize he had sinned and was so ashamed he hanged himself. But he did not go to Jesus and depend on him to be saved and so was lost.

    What I think many do not understand is that believing is not a work. Believing is a ceasing from work. To believe on Christ means you cease from trying to save yourself and depend upon Jesus to save you. Jesus does all the work, I simply stop working and allow him to save me.

    But nobody is going to believe on Christ unless they first hear the scriptures and believe them. You must accept as truth the scriptures when they say you have sinned.

    The scriptures do not say the Holy Spirit regenerates a person to believe, the scriptures say the Holy Spirit reproves or convicts a person.

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.


    The word of God convicts us, it makes us realize we are sinners. Then and only then will a person come to Christ.

    But even an unbeliever can be convicted, it is not some sort of magical thing.

    Let me tell you a true story. When I was young (before I accepted Christ), I had a buddy who had a paper route. I used to go out with him to deliver papers and go when he collected from his customers. Well, he got tired of delivering the paper and let me take over the route. I loved it, I was making about $11 dollars a week, this was back around 1963 and I was only 9 years old. That was a lot of money back then.

    Well, my Dad found out I was delivering papers and he didn't like it, because the route took me far from home. He was worried about my safety. So he told me to give up the route. I told him I would.

    Well, I lied. I continued to go out and deliver the paper in the afternoon. One day when I got home my Dad asked me if I had disobeyed him and delivered papers. I got scared and lied and said no.

    Well, my Dad did something I will never forget as long as I live. He said, "Son, I saw you delivering papers today, and I am very disappointed in you. You have always been a very good boy and listened to me, but today you disobeyed me, and now you have lied to me, I am very disappointed in you".

    I tell you the truth, my father's words were like a sword that pierced my heart. I felt like I shrank to one inch high. I was incredibly ashamed. I loved my father very much and we were very close. I would never do anything to hurt my father in any way. And when he said he was disappointed in me, that hurt worse than any spanking or beating he could have gave me. I will never forget how I disappointed my father. I never delivered papers again after that.

    So, people have the ability to hear and believe God's word. They have the ability to be convicted and feel ashamed. Anybody who denies this is denying reality, even unsaved people admit wrong and feel ashamed at times.

    And this is what God's word does. It convicts or reproves. And when a man hears he is a sinner, then he will come to Christ. But those who do not want to admit they are a sinner and admit the truth will not. And this is what the scriptures say.

    John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


    You will not accept this, but Jesus says there are two types of people, those who do evil (vs 20), and those who do truth (vs 21).

    But just because you do the truth and admit you are a sinner won't save you, you must come to Jesus and believe or depend upon him to be saved.
     
    #120 Winman, Dec 19, 2009
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