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Featured Election before believing !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Mar 21, 2024.

  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The scripture sets forth that the elect are elect before they believe and obtain Salvation 2 Tim 2:10

    10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Many today deny this Truth and tell us one isnt elect until after they believe, thats false.

    This Blessed Truth coincides with the fact that the Sheep of Christ are His Sheep before they believe Jn 10:16

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Notice Jesus uses the present tense " other Sheep I have" but He uses the future tense "they shall hear my voice"

    Christs Sheep and the elect of God are One.
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
     
  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Another scripture text that shows election before believing Rom 11:7

    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    They were of the election of grace before they obtained Salvation, in fact thats why they obtained it.
     
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  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Also notice in Rom 11:7 only the election obtains Salvation, and the rest of mankind as it was for the rest of natural israel, are blinded by God, they will never obtain salvation, that speaks to limited atonement as well.

    Are blinded is in the aorist tense passive voice, they received the action, and the word means:

    , to grow hard or callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding

    Jn 12:39-40

    39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

    40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    This is a irreversible situation.
     
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  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Election is before believing the Truth and its the result of election, 2 Thess 2:13

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen[election] you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
     
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  6. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Salvation is like all the other great doctrines of the scriptures. This salvation doctrine carries the trinitarian signature. It has three divisions, past , present, and future. A sinner is saved in the past by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is that he died for you, he was buried for 3 days in the tomb where his perfect body saw no corruption and he rose again the third day when his soul body and the Spirit were united and his body glorified and made fit for the heavenly realm. That took place in an instant, the moment one believed in the heart. The second definition of salvation is the present tense for all those who believed and were saved from the penalty of sin, which is eternal damnation of the second death in the lake of fire, the only place that the omnipresent God has chosen not to be.

    The second definition is defined as a growth process for the sinner who is born again. It is a calling and can best be illustrated with a couple verses in 1 Corinthians. Check it out.

    1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
    2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
    3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Note: Being sanctified in Jesus Christ is not a calling. It is a conversion. Paul is exercising his call to be an apostle to the gentiles here. The Corinthians were sanctified IN CHRIST JESUS when they were converted. This means they were separated in God's economy from other gentiles and became sons of God through and by this conversion when they believed. This part is God the Father's business but having been sanctified through conversion and placed into the body of Christ as a member of his body, they are now "called" to be saints" This is an ongoing and progressive process and is dependent upon the believer yielding to the power of the Spirit who indwells him. Since no one can arrive to total and complete sanctification while in this body of flesh, Sanctification is a life long calling of each and every Christian convert. So it is present tense salvation. Finally there is death when those who have been saved by trusting in Christ, no matter how well they did in their calling to be saints, are saved from the possibility of sin having been released from this weak body to appear in the presence of Christ our savior and awaiting our new body like unto his glorious body where sin will never be possible for us ever again.

    When the Bible speaks of predestination it is in terms of the third part of our salvation, glorification. One cannot hope for a glorified body if they have not been saved from the penalty of sin.
    Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


    4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
    5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
    6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
    7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

    God the Father called us into the fellowship of his son. That is, God the Father called us to salvation, past, present, and future.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
    16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A call is before any election. No Biblical except can be provided.
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You don't see it because of your anti-Sovereign Grace tunnel vision. It's odd, the same words from scripture bring comfort and joy to some while others like you abhor and actively oppose it.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

    11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9

    15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
    16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Jn 10
     
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  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    ky, why do you struggle so with this election thing? I feel for you in this. From the mother's womb is not before birth. This is Paul's testimony, not ours. There are so many similitudes to the life of Paul and the nation of Israel. Paul is set forth as a type of Jesus Christ after his rejection by his people. Look at this:

    24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    In other words, Jesus Christ himself would have not have done differently or spoken differently than Paul had he been physically present. He has all the authority of Jesus Christ on behalf of gentiles.

    Ro 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

    29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

    Peace.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ROFL, I assure you I'm not the one struggling over God's Sovereign Grace here! It's sweet music to my ears and comfort to my soul. No struggle, at all.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not one's works, but by whom,
    . . . calleth, . . . precedes one's . . . election:
    Romans 9:11, . . . according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, . . .
     
    #12 37818, Jul 9, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2024
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Right. He chose when 'they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil', and then He called .
     
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The call preceded the election.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    11 (for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her -- Ro 9

    You're saying 'the call' came while in the womb?
     
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Here is something interesting about election. Jesus Christ was the only person who was elected before the foundation of the earth. Election has to do with being a son of God. There were no individual sons of God for the first 4000 years of human history except 1, and his name was Adam. He was the son of God. Lk 3:38. However, he was created by God and he was not elected. He began his life as the son of God, but not by any birth, and could not be" born again," UNLESS being born again means what it meant when God BREATED life into his body and he became a LIVING soul. We now know without a doubt that the life of God is his Spirit and he/it is given to believers in Jesus as a gift to be received by faith in him and his person and work.

    I want to pause here and say thank you Jesus for taking care of my sins so I can be a son of God, having received the Spirit and become a LIVING soul. I was a soul but now I am a LIVING soul, having received the life of God, his Spirit to indwell my body.

    Fast forward to the birth of Israel in Egypt, God's type for the world. In Exodus chapter 4 God says Israel is his son, his first born son. Obviously he is not speaking of individuals but corporately Israel is his son. God elected this son. He did not elect individuals and those who were separated from the collective were considered dead, because that is the definition of death. One can read in the Pentateuch about those individuals who were cut off or in danger of being cut off from the collective and being reckoned dead by God.

    During this time, all the way up to the resurrection, individual Israelites were reckoned as "servants." They were not reckoned as sons because they did not have the life of God. Neither did this child that was born in the deserts of Egypt. This son was born of the flesh and did not have the life of God to indwell the corporate body. Later, in John 15/17 (one should read it now) Jesus said he had called his disciples servants but now he is calling them friends. In 1 John 1-3 he calls them sons of God and thus the trinitarian signature falls upon this doctrine.

    It is God's intention and will be the eventuality that the son of God, Israel, who was born after the flesh, will be regenerated and born of God collectively and corporately as well as individually so there will not be a single living Israelite that does not possess the life of God in their being. God will save his son, whom he has elected, from their sins. This is the context of Romans 7:1 through Romans 11:12 as he explains his program and how they fit into it during this age when he is saving individual gentiles who will believe in him.

    This does not negate his promise of election of his son and anyone who thinks it does should consider if God could change his mind about his election of Israel he can also change his mind about those of you who thinks that he has elected you. I would fear if I were you.

    When Jesus Christ first began his ministry at his baptism, John the Baptist was baptizing the nation individually in water to symbolize the physical cleansing of the people in preparation for their new birth. It was a symbolic act that showed the heart of each person and many did not submit. But John said there is another baptism in the future and it is a baptism of fire that will purge out the chaff and leave only the wheat of the harvest. It will be at the end of this purging that Israel will be born again nationally, meaning every Israelite left living will be saved. Psalm 12 says there will be seven different fires in this purging and at the end there will be few left. The son will then be not just the son of Abraham but the son of God.

    I have not given scriptures for proof because of the length but I can.

    In todays age, God is electing only those who receives his gift. and who the Spirit who indwells them has immersed into the body of Christ. This is true of both Jews and gentiles and they are one family "in Christ." I am going to quote two passages, one concerning gentiles and one concerning Israel to prove this is true.

    Gentiles:

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning (of this age) chosen you to salvation (deliverance) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    There is no election in this age without the Spirit and you Reformed are too intellectually advanced to let lesser minds than yours convince you of something that is not true.

    Strangers are individuals who are out of their homeland. This is true of the ten tribes of Israel as well as some from Judah since 722 BC.

    The scriptures have a historical and a prophetical context and is not just a religious work. There is a grand plan you are missing. I am trying to help.

    Isaiah 45:4
    For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
     
  17. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I think Ephesians says otherwise:

    “3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:3-6 NKJV)
     
  18. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    What about Acts, Paul is told to go to Macedonia (west), not east

    Why?

    God had chosen people there to hear the Gospel
     
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  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you David, for that.

    Would you agree that God is a trinity, one in three and three in one, divisible functionally yet the same in substance eternally? And would you agree that all three members of the trinity took counsel together for a purpose (Ep 1:11; 3:11) that would work out in a certain time that he call a " certain age in time = Aion = period of tome distinct from other ages - (eph 1:21 - 2:7 - 3:21) and he named this age the dispensation of the grace of God (Eph 3:2 - 3:5) and that he named the next age the dispensation of the fulness of times (Eph 1:10) when the purpose according to the counsel for this age is complete?"

    Advice from me to you. Read carefully and in context. Election & predestination in the NT epistles are terms unique to the purpose of this age.
     
    #19 JD731, Jul 10, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2024
  20. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Its them that have been ordained to eternal life that will believe Acts 13:48

    And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    The eternal ordination of God comes before the believing in time. Being ordained to eternal life speaks to eternal election.
     
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