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"Election"

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by KenH, Aug 19, 2022.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 1:4-9 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself

    A hymn written by William Gadsby. (in common meter)

    "Election"

    1. Election is a truth divine:
    As absolute as free;
    Works ne'er can make the blessing mine;
    'Tis God's own wise decree.

    2. Before Jehovah built the skies.
    Or earth, or seas, or sun;
    He chose a people for his praise,
    And gave them to his Son.

    3. Eternal was the choice of God -
    A sovereign act indeed:
    And Jesus, the incarnate Word,
    Secures the chosen seed.

    4. He loved and chose because he would;
    Nor did his choice depend
    On sinner's work, or bad, or good,
    But on his sovereign mind.

    5. Nor law, nor death, nor hell, nor sin,
    Can alter his decree;
    The elect eternal life shall win,
    And all God's glory see.

    6. His counsel stands forever sure,
    Immortal and divine;
    And justice, mercy, truth, and power,
    Unite to make it mine.
     
    #1 KenH, Aug 19, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Nothing wrong with Biblical conditional Election for salvation as presented clearly in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    How are we spiritually chosen? The Holy Spirit sets the individual apart within Christ's spiritual body.
    What is the basis of God's choice? God crediting our faith in the truth as righteous faith. Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

    Did God choose individuals before He created them? Nope God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, thus choosing those subsequently redeemed corporately, therefore we were chosen in Him.

    Does any verse say we were predestined for salvation? Nope, We were predestined to receive our full benefits as children of God at Christ's second coming.

    Were the saved a chosen people "for His praise" before they existed as "not a people?" Nope 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Pay no attention to the unstudied nonsense of Falselogy. Read and study your bibles.
     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Van, by your own declaration, can you definitively state that God considers your faith to be righteous? Or are you unsure? Must you wait until you meet God face-to-face and then hope your faith was worthy of being declared righteous?

    I would like you to tell us how you think God will review your life and make His decision when you die.
     
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  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    If a person is going to look to himself for perfection, such as having a perfect faith, nothing lacking, then he is looking at the wrong standard. Such a person fails to understand that the standard is perfect righteousness, not sincerity. And that perfect standard is Christ, not a man's imperfect faith.
     
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  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    Yet, we have some here who are stating that election is done by God at the end, not before the foundation of the world as shown in Ephesians 1.

    I would like them to explain how they think they are elect at this present moment, or are they living in a state where God may conclude at the end that their faith was not righteous and thus they failed to be elect.

    It's time the rubber meets the road with their theology.
     
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  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    They make election unto salvation conditional on them. Why? Because they don't trust God to save them. They want to be in control of their salvation, not God. Thus their need to insist on their "free will", because they lack faith in God to save them.
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Only Falselogy advocates claim they can read minds. Did I say I sing blessed assurance with gusto? Does this naysayer know the words?

    Next this self proclaimed biblical expert thinks God makes His decision on whether to save us or not when we physically die. So much for once saved always saved!!
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Nothing wrong with Biblical conditional Election for salvation as presented clearly in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    How are we spiritually chosen? The Holy Spirit sets the individual apart within Christ's spiritual body.
    What is the basis of God's choice? God crediting our faith in the truth as righteous faith. Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

    Did God choose individuals before He created them? Nope God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, thus choosing those subsequently redeemed corporately, therefore we were chosen in Him.

    Does any verse say we were predestined for salvation? Nope, We were predestined to receive our full benefits as children of God at Christ's second coming.

    Were the saved a chosen people "for His praise" before they existed as "not a people?" Nope 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Pay no attention to the unstudied nonsense of Falselogy. Read and study your bibles.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I trust God to save me, not something done by me or based on me. Some people might trust their faith to save them, but it is not a sure foundation, and I would urge them to trust God to save them instead of their faith.
     
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  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    My worth is not in what I own
    Not in the strength of flesh and bone
    But in the costly wounds of love
    At the cross
    My worth is not in skill or name
    In win or lose, in pride or shame
    But in the blood of Christ that flowed
    At the cross
    I rejoice in my Redeemer
    Greatest Treasure
    Wellspring of my soul
    I will trust in Him, no other
    My soul is satisfied in Him alone
    As summer flowers we fade and die
    Fame, youth and beauty hurry by
    But life eternal calls to us
    At the cross
    I will not boast in wealth or might
    Or human wisdom's fleeting light
    But I will boast in knowing Christ
    At the cross
    I rejoice in my Redeemer
    Greatest Treasure
    Wellspring of my soul
    I will trust in Him, no other
    My soul is satisfied in Him alone
    Two wonders here that I confess
    My worth and my unworthiness
    My value fixed, my ransom paid
    At the cross
    I rejoice in my Redeemer
    Greatest Treasure
    Wellspring of my soul
    I will trust in Him, no other
    My soul is satisfied in Him alone
    I rejoice in my Redeemer
    Greatest Treasure
    Wellspring of my soul
    I will trust in Him, no other
    My soul is satisfied in Him alone



    Source: Musixmatch
    Songwriters: Keith Getty / Kristyn Getty / Graham A. Kendrick
    My Worth Is Not In What I Own lyrics © Make Way Music, Getty Music Publishing
     
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  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

    Van like myself, trust in the bible. Which it would seem you do not or perhaps these verses are not in your version of the bible.

    You are the one that can not really know if your saved as you did not even trust in Christ before you were "saved" according to your theology. God has to give you your faith.
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Faith does not save anyone. God saves those that have faith/trust in His son. That is a basic concept that you seem unable to grasp.
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Did you not read these lyrics? Your theology has God do everything including giving you faith but if you read through these words you will see that they do not fit your theology but rather show a persons free will to:

    I rejoice in my Redeemer

    I will trust in Him, no other

    I will not boast in wealth or might

    I rejoice in my Redeemer

    I will trust in Him, no other

    I rejoice in my Redeemer

    I will trust in Him, no other

    I rejoice in my Redeemer

    I will trust in Him, no other

    and because of all these thing that the person does they can say
    My soul is satisfied in Him alone

     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says in Psalm 110:3 "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."

    It does not say "Thy people shall be willing in the day of their power."
     
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  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    these lyrics are regarding a Saved Soul.
     
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  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    If you read scripture, you know that the unsaved do none of the things in the lyrics. You know that the capacity to do any of these things is give to us by God's Sovereign ordination.

    You keep imagining that the capacity to act within the ordination of God's will is somehow tantamount to our wills being free.

    Silverhair, there is no freedom for a human. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. To whom are you enslaved?
     
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  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Who is given the gift of faith, Silverhair? Is everyone given the gift of faith?

    If, as you say, "faith doesn't save anyone" and God only saves those that have faith in Jesus, how did that person receive faith in Jesus so that God could then choose to save them...even though faith doesn't save anyone?
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You are still clinging to your false theology rather than trust the bible. Ken you are just being stubborn and ignoring all the scripture that indicates that we are to trust in Him.

    You do realize that Psalm 110:3 is a Messianic Psalm. It is telling Israel that they will be willing in the day of His power. You do understand for someone to be willing means that they are doing it because they want to. For it to work for you it would have to read "You will be made willing" which is rather a silly thing to say as you can not make someone willing.

    Psa 110:3 Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours. ESV

    Psa 110:3 Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy majesty,from the womb of the dawn you will receive the dew of your youth. NIV

    Psa 110:3 Your people willingly follow you when you go into battle. On the holy hills at sunrise the dew of your youth belongs to you. NET

    Psa 110:3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. NKJV

    Do you notice that it is the people that freely do this. They are not forced. You are grasping at straws in the hope it will support your failed view. Stop trying so hard to disprove the bible. Your making yourself look bad.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Free will before they are saved and free will after or no free will before and no free will after.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your a slave to your false theology as you do not trust what the bible says. You are trying to conflate can not trust with will not trust. Man has the ability to trust the gospel as scripture shows. You just do not want to believe what the bible says. You just keep digging a deeper hole with all your denials of scripture.
     
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