Ellen G. White

Bob:
What is fascinating is that you do not understand there were diversity of gifts. I Cor. 11-14, Eph. 4: 11,12. Prophetic utterance was not license to write by inspiration. Those inspired to write were the apostles and those given the ability as per Jesus statements in John 14,15,16 and Mat. 28, Rev. 1:11, I Cor. 14:37, II Thes. 2:15. Furthermore, spiritual gifts were given to others ONLY THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES HANDS Acts 8:17,18. If someone other than the Holy Men of God wrote by the power of the Holy Spirit, you can convince me by providing scripture that it is so. II Pet. 1:20,21. So far, you have presented No inspired evidence to support your position. NONE.
You have implied prophesy and writing by inspiration are the same thing or gift. This is blatantly false as graphe means to write an propheteuo means to reveal or proclaim truth.
Your argument from Num. and Cor. is simply matter of compariing apples to oranges and making conclusions that are not rational. There is no evidence for any furhter revelation to be revealed for the Ellen. There is no evidence a woman ever had the gift of inspirational writing.
Therefore, Ellen G. White is an uninspired writer of religious books, no more no less. To suggest otherwise is to deny evidence and to make an argument based on NO evidence. It is simply presupposition on the part of the one making the argument. It is baseless.

 

Bob:
As for your notion of me inventing the gift of writing, it is obviously implied in the command to write Rev. 1:11, I Cor. 14:37, II Thes. 2:15, I John 5:13 and a host of other passages. You can call it what you want. However, it does not change the truth that according to the inspired Peter HOLY MEN OF GOD SPAKE AND WROTE AS THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM ( the inspired men) utterance. II Pet. 1:20,21.
Bob, all you have to do to prove your argument is to provide one scripture for a woman being inspired to write. Just ONE!!!! I Thes. 5:21. if you do, you will be the first man in history to do so!! if youcannot provide the evidence for a woman being inspired to write, do the honorable thing and admit it!

 

HS - Who is Richard Rice??

I know a George Rice. A George Reed. Richard Fredericks.. (running out of combinations here)

In Christ,

Bob

[ April 25, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

#1. I am content to stick with "The Gift of Prophecy" as described EXPLICITLY in 1Cor 12, 14 and Numbers 12.

#2. I am not arguing that ALL those with the Gift of Prophecy WERE writing scripture "as you seem to want to do".

Again you are wandering far from the point. There is no doubt that Bible authors were inspired BUT NOT all Prophets were Bible authors. (The point repeatedly made IN scripture and IN this thread).

That would NOT prove my point since I AM NOT the one arguing that IF you are a prophet THEN you must be writing scripture - YOU ARE.

Try to keep the point of your argument in mind.

I can only "imagine" someone handed this to you without thinking it through and now you hand it to me - forgetting which point you are arguing and how you got there.

I envite you to come back to the discussion.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

Did Ellen G. White teach what the Scriptures already said or something new?

When you say:

are you saying that what Ellen G. White wrote is not intended for everyone? If so, why even read it? If it is a subjective truth how can it be truth at all? Truth is not subjective.

 

The question is not whether truth is truth or whether the prophets of 1Cor 14 are "really inspired by God".

The "TEST" of a prophet is that they must be telling the truth, in harmony with scripture, correct - "BECAUSE" the SOURCE is God - not the prophet.

But the SCOPE of the 1Cor 14 prophets was not "world wide" since clearly we do not have THEIR WORDS in writing today as SCRIPTURE. That did not make them "liars" - they were still prophets receiving "REVELATIONS from God" by "Dreams and Visions" - direct divine revelations.

God is "FREE" to tell a prophet anything that it pleases Him to say. HE could easily have told one that the US was going to be the ONE super power on earth one day. He could have told them that the US would win a war with Iraq this year. He could have predicted the sins of the world specifically regarding cloning, or abortion or ....

Lots of things that are not simply "a paraphrase" of the Bible


In Christ,

Bob

 

So, Bob, Are these the types of things that Ellen G. White talked about or did she speak on doctrinal subjects?

 

She also addressed doctrinal points - visions and dreams coming from God addressing doctrinal issues but not introducing new doctrines about who God is, the fall of man, the Gospel etc.

Details in the life of Christ, Details in the fall of man, Details about the fall of the Angels and the restoration of mankind - but not new "doctrine".

The result is that all the "doctrine" can be argued "sola scriptura" without appealing to any "message from Ellen White" as "needed" to establish the teaching.

One may read Billy Graham's books and get added detail/information on a certain doctrine without "changing the doctrine" itself. The added information is even MORE extensive when the source is inspiration.

When Paul taught in Acts 17, he claimed that "I taught NOTHING but what was written in the Law and the Prophets" - but in fact - the DETAILS about the Messiah were in much greater fullness - even at that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If God Used A woman to be an orator over the headship of man. wouldnt He be violating his own original expression as the man being the orator of God to his creation of man.

even confusing His expression of Christ (male) being the head over his bride or church (female)

doesnt it sound confusing...
the "body" speaking to its "head".

dont you feel a sense of violation when any woman attempts to speak for God as a leader or representative of authority over his church ?.

possibly to the point of viewing her as violating Gods concept of Christ Lordship?

 

God's Word states that "Deborah" was a JUDGE over all of God's people AND a prophet.

God's Word states that Philip had 4 daughters who were ALSO prophets.

God's Word states that ALL at the church of Corinth had the gift of prophesy - or at least "EACH one has a Revelation from God"

God's Word shows that God ACCEPTS Miriam's claim to Prophecy in Numbers 12.

Your point seems to be that NONE of this can be true since God would not "ALLOW" a women to hold such a high place before a man.

God's word says that in the Gospel system "There is NEITHER male nor female" but you have stated that the wall of distinction is so high - that God CAN NOT ALLOW the gift of prophecy to be given to a woman.

Your tradition is clear. It is Understood.

In Christ,

Bob

 

the more you read. the more confusing you create your excuse.

women in a society which contains men are to take a subservient role. not by force but by choice before God..
the same choice as the church chooses before the lord.

any man that allows women to assume control has lost control themselves.

women leaders are a sign of shame to men. for the men have proven to themselves that they are not capable of choosing to take responsibility for themselves and their circumstances.

and also a sign of arrogance of the part of any women for upsurping authority given to men by God.

 

As you note Me2 - sometimes God's Word is viewed with shame in some cultures.

Why? The Bible gives some clues.

God destroys the dividing wall of separation among Christians (Eph 2:14) - so that there is "neither Jew nor Greek - Male nor Female" Gal 3:28

God's Word states that "Deborah" was a JUDGE over all of God's people AND a prophet. Judges 4:4-6 without any mention of her being a "lesser being as a woman and so it was a shame to the great beings - the men" as some cultures insist.

God's Word states that Philip had 4 daughters who were ALSO prophets (without any mention of their being "lesser beings"). Acts 21:8


God's Word states that ALL at the church of Corinth (1Cor14) had the gift of prophesy - or at least "EACH one has a Revelation from God"

God's Word shows that God ACCEPTS Miriam's claim to Prophecy in Numbers 12.

The EACH ONE of 1Cor 14 would have of course lived "in shame" as ME2 points out if Women had been allowed to share in the spiritual gifts of 1Cor12 and 1Cor 14:1 "DESIRE Earnestly spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" with the result that when the church comes together "EACH ONE has a revelation" from the Lord.

Those in ME2's culture would respond "How awful that God would "allow women" to share in that gift" as ME2 says.

I do not wish to argue with your culture here ME2 - I am simply standing on the Word of God that the Holy Spirit is the one (not your culture) that determines who will get what Spiritual Gift.

In my case - I choose to let God be God. He decides who to give the gifts to - and what Gifts He will give. As "bad" as that may seem to some other cultures.

In Christ,

Bob

 

bob,

nowadays anyone can overhear anothers conversation and begin to tell the world... "God told me".

Im not judging Ms White.

just observing "traditional" social standards.


Me2

 

La Sierra I know about - but do not know Richard.

Bob

 

Just as in the days of 1Cor 14. I am not arguing for Ellen White specifically - just the concept of Spiritual gifts - the gift of Prophecy and the continuation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

deborah's judgeship was during a time of rebellion in israels history. the choice of deborah being judge was by the leaders of israel..NOT GOD. God used her to display disdain to the people of israel and israels enemies...which were men.

the simplicity of Gods message to mankind is to be to be spoken by men. the "Chosen" method by God.
which represents and parallels the head being Christ..and the body being the church, his bride.

and no confusion should exist. ever.

your expressing that this woman of noteriety is correct in her stance as a representative of Gods message before Christ bride..
I say this is questionable. why didnt God use a man to deliver the message within that religions denomination ? It seems confusing...

then theres pauls statements concerning women being silent in the church...thats confusing and not clear when mentioning a women prophet and her message before the church.

It seems that this is creating a vision of the body expressing a leadership role over the head.

now come on...
the we're the same male and female "in the lord" scripture wears thin when concerning women and leadership roles within the church.

maybe in an invisible environment, were all the same spirit substance with "no" gender. but unfortunately we are also 3 dimensional physical human beings on earth and thats the way it is. So in the here and now, were male and female and that implys roles and reponsibilities and standards that God sets, that works, and standards that men invent that seem confusing before all.

God chose men to be his oracle before all.

not women. so when one speaks. even one before an entire denomination. theres usually a lot to be said other than whats coming out of their mouth at the moment.

 

That was true of all judges and all prophets in the book of Joshua.

The people of Israel had no power over the Holy Spirit to give out the gift of Prophecy. They had no "vote".

There were "no elections for judges" in the days before the Kings. Rather Judges 3 tells us that "God raise them up". There is no "election to judge" recorded in all of the book of Joshua - certainly not for Deborah.

There is no statement that Deborah's judgship was "showing disdain for Israel".

You seem to be "wanting" give God guidelines for whom HE chooses as a Judge in Israel and whom HE chooses to give the gift of Prophecy to.

Notice in Joel 2:28 "Your sons AND your daughters" are given the gift of prophecy.

The "rule" that you seek to have God obey - seems to "slip passed Him" in His Word.

Your argument is not against one person - but against an entire gender - and there are (as I have pointed out in BOTH the NT and the OT) multiple cases where "your counsel" is not being followed by God.

As the cases for women prophets SHOWN from the NT and from the OT would argue - "God was not listening" to your "interpretation" of Paul IF you seek to apply it in that way.

In fact - Paul's statement can NOT be viewed as "instruction to the Holy Spirit on whom He can choose for the Gift of Prophecy".

Paul's OWN statement on Prophecy in 1Cor 12 and 14 does not limit it to "EACH MAN" in the church but to "EACH ONE".

And no wonder - Paul ALSO argues that there IS no dividing line spiritually between men and women (Gal 3:28). Far from instructing the Holy Spirit to maintain and division and NOT to give the gift of prophecy to women.

You have the cases listed in Acts 21, in 1Cor 14 to deal with in the NT - and you seem content to argue that God was in error.

As I said the role of prophet is explicitly identified in BOTH the OT and the NT as applying to women. You are arguing that God was in error and showing why that can not possibly be the right thing to do.

By interpreting Paul in such a way that God "should not" be giving the gift of prophecy to a woman -- Your argument is with scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The scripture I understand..I dont have a problem with.

Its the scripture I dont understand. that I dont try and make it say somthing thats non understandable.

God is simply described to me as rational and orderly. he states something simple and lets it stand on its own merit before all.

God allows Man to receive Glory from Him as orators and heads of responsibility over women in his creation.
Women have competed for this authority from men since Genesis in the Garden.
God gives man a hint of whats occurring by placing a "curse" on women to be the helpmeets of men.

To go against that "curse" and to compete for this authority and glory of men is what we call ENVY.

not prophecy..God does not deter from his original plan. Men hear, they experience and their faith is tried,. Men witness to others. thats their authority, reponsibility and glory.

Their God given inheritance of being a Man.
the HEAD

It envy of women wanting the authority and glory of men that women compete for over against men.

God didnt pick women to be the oracles over men.

so it might sound good and "equal" but it has never been part of God's plan. its an illusion.

so thats enough from me about this subject...
Im finding it creepy.

Bye
Me2