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End Times

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John3v36, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    WARNING WILL ROBINSON!, WARNING WILL ROBINSON!

    Adding or taking away?

    This can look at three different ways.

    1. The obvious is rewriting same book with either extra words or some words missing or a combination thereof.

    2. The accidental adding and taking away when it was translated from the Greek to any other language.

    3. The accidental adding and taking away when it is tempted to be interpretated. This was warned about in 2 Peter 1:20-21:

    Each one of you here is expressing your own private interpretation to a certain degree. You are treading on very shaky ground. Be careful of where you step. It just might be your last in the realm of eternal life.

    The only thing that is allowed with the book of Revelations is the hearing of it. Interpretation is warned against.

    Furthermore, the adding and taking away only applies to this book. It does not apply to the rest of the bible. At the time of the writing of Revelations, each Gospel or Epistle was a stand alone entity. The only reason that all the books are bound up into a single volume is by virtue of technology. Be warned.

    Good day.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Mojoala: //(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ.//

    No problem. Learn to count :applause:

    ONE COMING OF JESUS ONLY:
    1a. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
    1b. First coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
    1c. First coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
    1d. First coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist

    TWO COMINGS OF JESUS:
    1a. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
    1b. First coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
    2a. Second coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
    2b. Second coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist

    THREE COMINGS OF JESUS:
    (favorite of a-mill post-tribs & pre-mill post-tribs):
    1a. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
    1b. First coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
    2. Second coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
    3. Third coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist

    FOUR COMINGS OF JESUS:
    1. First coming of Jesus as a babe in the manger
    2. Second coming of Jesus to the earth in victory over hell
    3. Third coming of Jesus to the earth to rapture the saints
    4. Fourth coming of Jesus to the earth to defeat the Antichrist
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Catholics have always been against personal interpretation of God's Word.
    Mojoala, I know that you are not a Baptist, so please don't post in Baptist Forums.
    Thank you.
    DHK
     
  4. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Just a note here on 'in the name of Jesus.'

    When my oldest son was about four, we had finished praying one night before I tucked him in and he turned to me and asked, "What is Jesus' name?"

    After spending about fifteen minutes of trying to think of every title I could ("Son of God" "Savior" "Redeemer", etc.), and frustrating my son no end, he finally got the words for what he meant: "NO, Mom, when we say 'in Jesus' name' in our prayers, what is His name?"

    And after thinking about it for a bit, I finally realized what we were saying when we said "...in Jesus' name...Amen." We are praying in accordance with His CHARACTER. If a man has a 'good name' in town, then he has a good reputation; his character is held in high esteem.

    So when something is prayed or done, truly in Jesus' name, it is being prayed or done in a way that upholds His character and is under His authority.

    I've learned a lot from my kids through the years.
     
  5. mnw

    mnw New Member

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    Thank you Ed. :)

    As I said before, Mel, when I get the chance I'll look at my numbers again, in more detail than you have bothered so far. However, it does not change the fact that the word in question can refer to a departure of many kinds.

    You fail to recognise that translators, whose Greek and Hebrew exceed our own, translated the word in a way that potentially supports the rapture.

    I don't say it is the absolute only interpretation for that passage. For me neither the truth of the apostacy or the rapture rests on a single passage. The case in point could possibly mean either, but because of the language and the context I believe it means the rapture rather than the apostacy.
     
  6. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    As I said before, Mel, when I get the chance I'll look at my numbers again, in more detail than you have bothered so far. However, it does not change the fact that the word in question can refer to a departure of many kinds.

    You fail to recognise that translators, whose Greek and Hebrew exceed our own, translated the word in a way that potentially supports the rapture.

    I don't say it is the absolute only interpretation for that passage. For me neither the truth of the apostacy or the rapture rests on a single passage. The case in point could possibly mean either, but because of the language and the context I believe it means the rapture rather than the apostacy.[/quote]
    ______________________________________________________________

    Again, I see no scripture reference for your remarks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Apostasia (#646) is used one other time in the N.T. as I showed you!!!!
    It is translated FORSAKE. Why can't you produce scripture?????????????

    Enough said.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection of the saints

    Mel Miller: //Again, I see no scripture reference for your remarks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!//

    Here are his sciptures:

    2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1587):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
    for that day shall not come,
    except there come a departing first,
    and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
    euen the sonne of perdition,

    2 Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes,
    for that day shall not come,
    except there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sinne bee reuealed,
    the sonne of perdition,

    -------------------------------------
    Here is my Thessalonian report:
    -------------------------------------
    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
    -------------------------------------
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Sister Helen -- You are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

    The name of our Lord is

    Hebrew = Yeshua
    1611 English = Iesus (pronounced like we pronounce Jesus today)
    2006 English = Jesus
    0500 Latin = [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Iesu

    [/FONT]
     
  9. mnw

    mnw New Member

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    You know what, just single marks of punctuation do the job? Anyway...

    I believe key to understanding my statement is realising I do not refer to a single Greek word. I state this in my original post on the matter. Just to remind you...

    "Taking into account the verb in Greek from which this noun takes its meaning, aphisteemi..."

    Now, here are the 15 occurances referred to in that statement:


    Luke 2:37—"departed not from the temple."
    Luke 4:13—"the devil...departed from Him."
    Luke 8:13—"in time of temptation fall away."
    Luke 13:27—"depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity."
    Acts 5:37—"drew away much people after him."
    Acts 5:38—"refrain from these men."
    Acts 12:10—"the angel departed from him."
    Acts 15:38—"who departed from them from Pamphylia."
    Acts 19:9—"he departed from them."
    Acts 22:29—"they departed from him."
    II Cor. 12:8—"I besought the Lord...that it might depart."
    I Tim. 4:1—"some shall depart from the faith."
    I Tim. 6:5—"from such withdraw thyself."
    II Tim. 2:19—"depart from iniquity." Heb. 3:12—"in departing from the living God."


    Notice only 3 of these have reference to a departure from the truth. In fact, 2 speak of departing from iniquity.

    I have more detail on the Greek if you want.

    Enjoy.

    And Ed, thank you for your comments
     
  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Uh, ever hear of Judas??

    Ed
     
  11. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    mnw,

    Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________
    "I believe key to understanding my statement is realising I do not refer to a single Greek word. I state this in my original post on the matter".
    _____________________________________________________________

    I wish to repeat that *apostasia* and *apostasion* (#646 and #647)
    refer to a FORSAKING, a "bill of divorcement" and #646 is only used one other time in the N.T. --- Acts 21:21 where it refers to FORSAKING the teaching of Moses.

    Paul uses the word apostasia (Strong's #646) and you use the word
    aphistemi (Strong's #868). You admit your word means several things.

    Apostasia only means "defection from truth; to forsake". That is
    Strong's definition and Thayer's definition.

    Your substitute of a different Greek word, aphistemi, is another case of "deception"!! My well meaning friend, I believe in Biblical accuracy ... not in deceiving people.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:
     
  12. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Mel, the "ridiculous format" I was referring to was the fact that the "New downgraded- er I mean "Upgraded (roll eyes) BB format" would not allow me to inject a one word response of "Amen!" by itself.

    Ed
     
    #212 EdSutton, Jul 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2006
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen!67890

    Gotta have 10 characters.

    So I do stuff like:

    Amen, Brother EdSutton -- Preach it! :thumbs:
     
  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    While I am not sure exactly what is a "travail unit", in this I believe that one translation speaks of "travail" in this context.

    Ed
     
  15. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    EdSutton has been arguing -er I mean debating, eschatology for years? Well, maybe, but not on the BB, as I've only been a member for less than a year.

    Ed
     
  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Ed Edwards wrote:

    Ed, I like that quote. :thumbs:

    Ed
     
  17. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    With all due respect, mojoala, regardless of one's view of eschatology, "UNSTABLE" is not called for.

    Ed
     
  18. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    First, the 'book' is not the book of Revelations, but rather the book of "Revelation", and is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", properly named. (Rev. 1:1)

    Secondly, you wrote:

    Oh really??

    "
    3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Rev. 1:3 - NKJV)"


    Seems to say a bit more than only "hearing", wouldn't you say?



    Ed
     
  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    With respect, DHK, and also realizing you may have some info the rest of us are not privy to, the profile for mojoala still lists him as one "considering" leaving "independent Baptist", but still a member of a 'Baptist" denomination.

    Ed
     
    #219 EdSutton, Jul 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2006
  20. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Agree James did not dispute that doctrine for the Gentile, but did for himself. James was saved for the "kingdom that was at hand", and not to be raptured for the simple fact that at his "justification" the gospel was by the grace of God by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Nowhere does James attempt to tell us anything other than that. He was a Jew, saved as a Jew, proud of it and would have it no other way. Surmise you are a Gentile and if so James would not be your buddy, associate with you, eat with you or preach to you the way of "his justification" unless you wish to come as a proselyte. He would tell you to go to your own kind, and have Paul preach to you.


    But there is Mel. The end for me is the "rapture". And you say the end for you is . . .?
     
    #220 ituttut, Jul 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2006
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