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End Times

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John3v36, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I think these things are told because the Bible clearly says believers will be rewarded for works. Working out salvation means we are to respond to the HS and be conformed to the image of Christ willingly. God will do it, but we might not be willing all the time.
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    The saints will be raptured either before or during the Tribulation. But those saved during the Tribulation are told to come out of Babylon in Rev. 18.
     
  3. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    J.Jump,

    quote:
    ------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by J. Jump:
    The biggest reason is that we are not guaranteed a spot in the Kingdom of Christ (1,000 years)
    ------------------------------------------------

    Please note that the Martyrs are "guaranteed"
    a place in the Kingdom ... not only will they
    "reign with Christ" in heaven for 1000 years
    (Rev.20:4); but they will

    "serve God day and night in the Temple of heaven". This happens before the New Jerusalem
    comes down upon the New Earth since there will
    be "no temple nor day and night" after 1000 years. Rev.21:22,25.

    They win the highest obtainable reward that
    is offered to the Church!!!
    Read Rev.7:15-17 and then Rev.3:12.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  4. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Marcia unfortunately there are some that aren't willing any of the time. Those will be the ones that do not participate in the kingdom, but they are still eternally "saved."

    The church will indeed be raptured before the seven-year tribulation (all the church).

    Mel I'm not sure where you got the "serve God day and night in the Temple of heaven" quote. The martyrs that come out of the tribulation will indeed rule and reign with Christ on His earthly kingdom. Christians today are in a position to occupy a place in His heavenly kingdom.

    So there will be an earthly kingdom that Israel will occupy with Christ and then qualified Christians will rule from the heavenly sphere with Christ.
     
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Marcia,

    Quote:
    _______________________________________________
    The saints will be raptured either before or during the Tribulation. But those saved during the Tribulation are told to come out of Babylon in Rev. 18.
    _______________________________________________

    What evidence do you have that the Rapture
    will take place prior to the fall of Babylon?

    The Ten Kings will destroy the City before
    God puts it into their hearts to "give their
    power and authority to the Beast"!!!

    Marcia, those who are martyred during the
    great tribulation are as much recipients of
    the promise to be "kept from the hour of
    trial" as you and I are recipients.

    For the text that makes this promise also
    includes the promise of their reward to
    "serve God in the temple of heaven" for
    1000 years! This is most amazing if you think about it. Rev.3:10-12.

    So the "Day of Wrath and Hour of Trial" must be
    limited to a single 12-Hour Day IMO.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  6. genesis12

    genesis12 Member

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    The simple truth is that in response to the 144,000 witnesses, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, many, of every description, will be saved during the tribulation. They will also be martyred for their faith, but saved, nonetheless.

    Those Christians who were caught up in the rapture obviously are not those mentioned in Mel's posts. Again, why do we debate this? It is going to happen! Choose now to be saved, sanctified, and justified, or to remain lost for eternity. That's the ONLY issue! Why put up a website voicing one view over another? Bible interpreters come to different conclusions, then ride their horse to death. For what purpose? Does the Bible need interpreters? All scripture is spiritually discerned! Does that mean there are several spirits? NO! Who has spiritual discernment? The born-again Believer! So how is it that so many who profess to be born again in this choir are singing the wrong notes? [​IMG]
     
  7. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    genesis12,

    You ask two questions that are strange to me.
    _______________________________________________
    Again, why do we debate this?
    Does the Bible need interpreters?
    _______________________________________________

    Evidently you are interested or you would not
    take part in the debates. The fact that there
    are so many viewpoints perhaps reveals that
    there needs to be found a basic premise that
    will be agreed to by all who participate.

    My basic premise is that the Day of God's wrath
    is a single 12-Hour Day that includes the Hour
    of Trial from the consequences of which all who "keep God's word to endure are exempt"
    until Christ comes with all the Saints!
    Rev.3:10-11.

    Why do I make this premise? It's because even
    the Martyrs until the Day Christ comes will be
    rewarded by "serving God in heaven's temple"
    for 1000 years ... a promise that doesn't apply
    to Church members who "overcome to the end".
    Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4; Rev.2:25-27.

    From this premise I have proposed that there
    will be no common agreement on the coming of
    Christ until it is recognized that 100 verses
    in the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled
    on the very Day Christ comes in glory and power.

    These 100 verse may be found at my Centerpiece
    and they reveal the "resurrection and rewards"
    promised to the Saints will occur at the 7th
    Trumpet on the Day of God's Wrath and Gathering
    of all the Saints.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  8. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Agree, today it has no meaning to we in the Body of Christ, other than the immediacy of "spreading His Word from Heaven". But many while “bravely” saying they will go through the tribulation”, need to understand they will not, if they are in the Body of Christ Church. I believe it is getting close to full, but who knows? Entrance into the Body of Christ comes only by the “grace commission”, and until the filling of His Body is accomplished, the boundaries of hell are being expanded.

    Hell of course came about to house Satan, and his followers. Look how much it has had to be enlarged already. It is getting larger every day. While the Body of Christ Church I believe will have so many members, and also those in the kingdom of the Apostles, and the Holy City and Temple are measured, hell is ever expanding.

    Will the kingdom of God be limited? We don’t know what awaits us in the “unsearchable riches of Christ, or God’s kingdom.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Calvibaptist:
    //Christians for 1850 years missed what you consider to be "God's purpose."
    Until then, most believed that the prophecies of Matthew 24-25
    and Revelation referred to the struggle of the people
    of God against the world throughout its history
    and the good news that God's kingdom would eventually win.//

    Probably your statement isn't true especially this part:
    // ... most believed that the prophecies of Matthew 24-25
    and Revelation referred to the struggle of the people
    of God against the world throughout its history ... //

    Such a belief is contradictory to Matthew 24 Itself where
    Jesus says:

    Matthew 24:21 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ :)

    For at that time there will be great tribulation,
    the kind that hasn't taken place since the beginning of the
    world
    into now, and never will again.

    BTW, note that if the tribulation time ends with the
    Second advent of Jesus then the world ends, as some are want
    to believe, then Jesus made a false statement. There has to
    be something better happen after the Tribulation Period
    so the words of Jesus 'never will gain' are true.

    IMHO it is wrong to call the last 2,000 years a period
    of great tribulation that is worse than the
    four thousand years before. This belief also negates what
    Jesus clearly said.

    So, no, I don't belive that most people 33AD through
    1830 believed just like those who badly need a supporting
    argument and make this one up :(

    Calvibaptist: //The purpose of God throughout the history of the world has ALWAYS
    been to redeem a people for Himself to the praise of the glory of His grace.//

    Amen, Brother Calvibaptist. and on the last 'day' (the 7-year
    = 2 times 3½-years) 'day' called The Tribulation Period, Jesus
    will not only raise up His redeemed gentiles at the beginning of
    the 'day' Jesus will also raise up His redeemed Israeli/Jewish
    people at the end of the 'day'. Ain't God Good!!

    John3v36:
    //Regardless of whether and when the End Times come, what would
    they change? The saved would be saved, the unsaved
    would be unsaved, the Kingdom of God would neither
    expland nor contract, moreover, nothing can be done
    by mortals to either accelerate or delay this prophecy,
    so what practical significance does it have? //

    Strangely, the Bible directly answers your question.
    The answer to all your questions is in 2 Peter 3 (I've
    memorized that address, cause, I asked the same question
    a time or two myself.

    The answer is clearest here:

    2 Peter 3:11-12a (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

    Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way,
    it is clear what sort of people youshould be in holy
    conduct and godliness as you wait for and earnesty desire
    the coming of the day of God ...


    So the coming destruction of the earth and the elements of
    the world order is reason for us to LIVE RIGHT in the here-and-now.

    BTW, I can tell you when THE LAST DAYS started:

    Acts 2:16b-17a (HCSB):

    ... this is what was spoken through the prohet Joel:
    17. And it will be in the last days, says God,
    that I will pour out MY SPIRIT on all humanity ...


    The LAST DAYS began on the Day of Pentacost in the year
    I believe to be 33AD. The LAST DAYS continue until now
    and will continue until the pretribulation rapture takes
    place ending THE LAST DAYS. Then the LAST DAY itself will
    take place, the Tribulation Period, a 7-year-long 'day'.

    J.D.: //I believe the bible is intentionally
    vague on the future so that we would walk by faith.//

    If perchance you ever are revealed the total details of
    all eschatology, you would still have to walk by faith.


    Another good verse that shows why eschatology is
    important:

    2 Peter 3:17 (HCSB):

    Therefore, dear friends, since you have
    been forewarned, be on your guard, so that you
    are not lead away by the error of the immoral
    and fall from your own stability.


    So keep the faith, dear brothers and sisters.
    Live Right and Do Good cause the Lord is going to come
    get you and take you to heaven right before the destruction
    of 90%+ of humanity.

    Matthew 24:21-22a (HCSB):
    For at that time there will be great tribulation the kind that
    hasn't taken place since the beginng of the
    world until now, and nver will again!
    Unless those days were cut short, no one would survive. ...

    Now there are some that say the Lord won't come get us
    Christians until the end of the Tribulation period when
    over 90% of the people of the world are dead, 7-years too
    late. They are the ones who think it is necessary to
    scare Christians into being good, like they are supposed to
    do. Sorry, good works

    Bill Brown: // I do not believe in a rapture,//

    Would you describe and/or define the 'rapture' that you
    don't believe in? I find nearly every time someone really answers
    this question (instead of doing a non-Baptist DANCE around the
    subject) they describe raptures I don't believe in either.
    But I believe in a rapture and I believe cleary that the
    Lord, Messiah Yeshua, Christos Iesus, Christ Jesus, will RAPTURE
    His own prior to the Tribulation Period.

    Some say that 'rapture' isn't in the Bible. Well maybe it isn't
    in their Bible. But 'rapture' is certainly in the Latin Bibles
    at 1 Thessalonians 4:17. My HCSB translats the Greek word
    as 'caught up' but the Latin translation is 'rapture'.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 (HCSB):
    Then we wo are still alive will be
    caught up together with them in the clouds to
    meed the Lord in the air; and so
    we will always be with the Lord
    18. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    My Bible says were are encourage one another to
    do good works using words like 'rapture'.
    I believe there will be a rapture. Quite frankly,
    I think God will have more than one 'rapture'.
    Our God wants to resurrect (the dead come back to life)
    and rapture (the living are changed) lots of people.
    I believe there will be a physical/literal rapture
    comming soon to a world near you SOON! Amen!

    Genesis12: //Why am I in this forum debating instead
    of lifting up the Name of Jesus in the public square?
    I don't know of anyone who is changed by Christian
    forum debates. I do know of many who are angered!//

    I don't know of anyone who is changed by public
    demonstrations. Public demos only make me angry :(
    I'm for letting guest workers work in the USofA, even
    if my children do get paid less in competition.
    I certainly don't mind paying for my children. I'm
    giving four people monthly money to help them with
    college work. I support two children below the
    college level.
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Amen, Brother Ed, Preach it [​IMG]
     
  11. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    I have TWO sets of verses which SHOULD clear up ALL the debate about EndTimes and what WE should be doing these days. They are as follows:(without further comment....just believe'em and live by faith)
    Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
    13-"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:Fear God,and keep His commandments:for this is the whole duty of man.
    14-For God shall bring every work into judgement,with every secret thing,whether it be good,or whether it be evil."

    and...from the New Testament...

    Colossians 3:1-4
    1-"If ye then be risen with Christ,seek those things which are above,where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
    2-Set your affections on things above,not on things on the earth.
    3-For ye are dead,and your life is hid with Christ in God.
    4-When Christ,who is our life,shall appear,then shall ye also appear with Him in glory."

    God Bless You All!! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Greg Sr. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Greg Sr.,

    Your point is well-meant; but some people want to
    know what to expect in the days just before Christ comes and ON the Day He comes in great
    glory and power.

    IMO, there are 100 verses in the Book of Revel-
    ation describing events of that 12-Hour Day.

    The order of these events helps Endtime Martyrs understand what they will face "in the days
    whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound".
    Rev.10:6-7. They will need the encouragement
    of this Book to remain faithful to the END.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  13. mima

    mima New Member

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    Gregory Perry Sr. As I read your post I was very disappointed not to find anything referring to soulwinning and the great commission.
     
  14. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Maybe the commission isn't that great. Last week I won 20 souls and only got 10% commission.

    [This is a joke. This is only a joke. If you did not find it funny, then either it wasn't funny or you take things way too seriously, so here's a nickel to go buy a sense of humor. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.]
     
  15. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    What is the great commission? Can you give the references to it, so that we may see it in its entirety?

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    And God Bless You Sir.
    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Genesis12: //Why put up a website voicing one view over another?//

    It draws the crowds. Mel Miller's site www.lastday.net
    will draw hundreds of people to witness to each day.
    Mel Miller probably witnesses to more people each day than
    all the rest of the participants in this discussion combined.

    Several times (various boards) I tryed a thread like:
    "Good works and how to do them". Very few came. After awile
    I'd loose interest also (this was before blogs were popular,
    i guess now I could blog and a few would come, eh?)
    However, get a good OSAS (once saved, always saved) type
    Security of Salvation discussion/debate/feud going and dozens of
    people will come by and put in their 2¢ worth.

    Same way with end times discussion, the public will come to see
    what all the posts are about. Anyway, we are 'study it for yourselves'
    and 'let the Holy Spirit speak with you' type Baptist persons,
    so each of us must reach our own eschatological position.
    So, I think that posting in such copies is a more effective method
    of witnessing than many others: specifically better than
    street preaching and random door knocking.
     
  18. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Brother Ed:

    I want to thank you for not being critical of my
    Website in stating:
    ________________________________________________
    Genesis12: //Why put up a website voicing one view over another?//
    ________________________________________________

    On Dec.23, 1988, my best friend and I were suddenly convinced (independently of each other)
    that the White Horseman of the Apocalypse was
    aleady at work in the world with the goal of
    spreading and defending the role of Democracy.

    On Dec.23, 1991, another friend and I together
    realized John the Apostle would become one of
    the Two Witnesses.

    Without question, the stats show that my article on the Apostle at the Website is being read by 100's of thousands; more than any other message I have posted in the last seven years.

    But my main theme has not "caught on" with the
    run-of-the-mill public. That theme is an
    innovative approach to the Book of Revelation.
    I have believed, since June 23, 1995, that 100
    verses in Revelation will be fulfilled on the
    12-Hour Day of God's wrath which begins with
    Seal #6.

    This thematic position supports my basic premise that the Day of the Lord is a single 12-Hour Day and NOT a period of months or years; especially NOT the "63 month-length" of that Day proposed by the first Left Behind Book, P.310-312.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  19. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Where did they get 63 months??? :confused: :confused:
     
  20. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Me4Him,

    "The first 21 months (84-21 leaves 63 months for the trumpets and plagues) encompass what the Bible calls the Seven Seal Judgments. Then comes
    another 21 month period for the seven Trumpet
    Judgments. In the last 42 months of the seven-
    years of tribulation, if we have survived, we
    will endure the most severe tests, the seven
    Vial Judgments". Book One, Left Behind, P.309.

    "The 7th Seal introduces the 7 Trumpet Judgments which take place in the second quarter of this seven year period". P. 312.

    The "signs" of Seal Six's "Day of God's Wrath" take place "after the great tribulation" according to Jesus. The Left Behind Book claims
    these "signs" occur at the end of the first 21
    months of Daniel's 70th Seven. The word of the Lord is disallowed by making its "signs" occur
    21 months BEFORE instead of "in the days AFTER the great tribulation". Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
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