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End Times

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John3v36, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Let me quote John Gill:

    they saw that the Gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the Gospel of the circumcision was to Peter; by "the uncircumcision and circumcision" are meant the Gentiles and Jews; see Rom_2:26 by the Gospel of the one, and the Gospel of the other, two Gospels are not designed, for there is but one Gospel, and not another.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    Sorry Grasshopper, but will have to preach here, and I do this for I believe you wish to study the Word of God for understanding.

    But why do you choose to believe this man John Gill, over and above Christ Jesus from heaven? In Galatians 2:7-9 does not Paul separate the two gospels saying there was one at that time for the "uncircumcised", and one for the "circumcised"? Later, after the death of the last Apostle, John, heaven is silent. God does not speak directly to His people. Today the Jews are as they were before. They have been thrown into the "pit" with we heathen Gentile's who "will hear the Word" and we are to spread the "grace commission" of Christ Jesus from heaven of salvation of the Cross by the Grace of God that comes to us throughfaith of, and in, our Lord Jesus Christ.

    God today speaks to us through His Word, the Bible, and it is all written for us, and the Epistles of Paul are written specifically to us.
    [qb/]Would you agree we are all in the same boat today? There is no difference as far as God is concerned between the Jew and the Gentile. The Jew could back then, if they wished, to come as a Gentile, as we see in Acts 15 :9-12, "And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
    12. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them."
    We see here Israel had no idea they could be saved just by believing through faith. This is New to them. This is a New gospel that was hidden in God from the beginning. This was not ever mentioned in scripture before, and could not for it was a "secret" of God's. It could not be told until after the Damascus Road incident shown in Acts 9.

    Can you see here what Peter is saying? There is no way Peter, James, John or those of The Jewish Pentecostal church, could come as the "Christians". They were already committed to the "circumcision" gospel, the gospel of "blood covenant" with God the Father. We know they were at that time still bound by the "law and those Ordinances". They still made blood sacrifice. They still held the "Sabbath day Holy". These are of the Jewish faith, but can now be brought into "The Body of Christ"; Into His Kingdom. Not only that but Jesus says He gives these, HIS earthly Apostles their own "kingdom" (Luke 12:32). This is their gospel of "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins" meaning they will inherit the earth. But Peter now says they can also be saved like the "Gentiles".

    What does Peter mean by this? They cannot now be saved not just by faith as all before were saved (Hebrews 11) having to endure until the end, but now they can be saved just as are the heathen through faith, meaning INSTANT salvation into the Body of Christ. They can now have the "peace and joy" while they live of knowing the Are As They Live - SAVED, not waiting until they die, having to live under the law of ordinances. Scripture seems to indicate Peter and James may not have been able to make the switch, but I believe John did.

    There were two Body of Christ gospel's being taught during the time of the Apostles. We Gentiles, and all today are again considered Gentile's, and we are to have only One Gospel, and that is the Gospel of Paul, which is the dispensational Gospel given to Paul by Christ Jesus from heaven. A Gentile can never be a Jew while on this earth, but the Jew has reverted from a "brand" name back to the "generic" human race of heathen Gentile. That "brand" of salvation has been pulled off the market, but just until after the rapture
    But scripture will not bear this out. The Jewish Pentecostal church in Jerusalem preached a different gospel, that of the Jew "must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins", for they still lived under the ordinances of the Law, of blood sacrifice, keeping the Sabbath Holy, and keeping the "covenant" they made with God in "circumcision" saying they would obey the Law.

    Is this the "Christian" that comes from the "Christian" church in Antioch? Paul told them to keep "their Judaziers" (perhaps unbelievers in that church believing they were saved) away from my Gentile's. They (Gentiles) will come into the Temple in Christ Jesus, and not come to the Father by being a proselyte of your "faith", and never be able to enter into the Temple. There will be those that are "raptured", and there will be those that will go through the tribulation, as a Jew or a Gentile, in their proper place in that "dispensation".

    James became the head of that dieing Pentecostal church, and we cannot escape the fact that James lived for and under the Law and it ordinances. James will have nothing to do with gospel of Paul, and Paul says he will have nothing to do with the Law under those of "covenant" for his Gentiles.
    No, and there were more than two (2) gospels. The gospel of Paul, that Christ gave to him could not be prophesied. It could not be "foretold" for it would not have been a "secret". And we are told it Was a Secret, and we are to believe it was a secret for this is what Christ told Paul.

    I don't believe there are Two Gospels today, or three, but that second gospel was during the time of "that generation" (and that generation will continue after the rapture). I believe there is only "one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ, " Ephesians 4:4-7. We find in this scripture Our sure Hope is Through Faith in our One Lord Christ Jesus, and our One Baptism by the Holy Spirit, sealed in bringing us to our One God and Father of All. There is no way we can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    This is how we are saved, viz. "believe on the name, which name is the Word of God, Jesus Christ (we now know his name as those before didn't) the only begotten Son of God the Father, and we will be saved. The "great commission" has no power for we today. This is what the Catholic, Lutheran, church of Christ and some others believe. We do not, so we should stop showing our ignorance in our salvation. Today there is One gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven.
    Act 24:5 For we have found this man pestilent, and moving rebellion among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes,
    Act 24:6 who also attempted to profane the temple, whom we took and would have judged according to our Law.


    </font>[/QUOTE]
    Yes, we see at least two, and possibly three things here when we include verse 5 for rebellion, a pest stirring up Jews under Roman law.

    The next had truth for Paul did align himself with Jesus, the man from Nazareth, but in whom they didn't believe; but Paul also believed Moses.

    The third of sacrilege, but all he brought was himself and alms and offerings, all be it much was from "heathen" Christians.

    But Paul defends himself of "sedition" for he had only been there 12 days, half being in the Temple, and the other in Roman custody.

    Heresy? He never questioned Moses and/or the prophets.

    Sacrilege? They couldn't prove that - Acts 24:18, "Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult." Also I would imagine some of his accusers remembered when he brought Titus to Jerusalem earlier for their meeting with the Jewish Pentecostal church to leave the Gentiles alone. It would have been a "stretch" but had the trial gone their way, they would have had Paul taking Titus the Gentile into the Temple, which was forbidden.

    We can plainly see here that Paul had another Gospel, and the Jew would not believe the gospel of Christ from heaven. These Jews are not of the Jewish Pentecostal church, so these Jews have another gospel, so I don't see how it can be said there has always "only been One gospel". We know there were "three".

    If Paul was preaching what the prophets spoke of and Paul is accused of preaching a different Gospel, then what Gospel were James,Peter and John preaching?

    [/quote]
    Paul did not deny what the prophets spoke. He did not deny the gospel before the gospel of John the Baptist of the kingdom of heaven was at hand, and the Jew must "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins". This is the gospel that James, Peter and John preached as shown in Acts 2:38. This is what the Word of God tells us. But Paul was never of this gospel as Paul was never of that Jewish Pentecostal church. Paul went from that "first gospel of the Jew, that of the Law of Moses" to the "grace good news gospel of the Cross" of Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Those of the Pentecostal church went from that of the Law of Moses to the gospel of John the Baptist of "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" keeping the gospel also of the "circumcision" law of ordinances as scripture shows they continued to do.
    But this doesn't say what you believe it means. It tells of searching for that which was not known. There was evidence of something coming, but it was not revealed. (KJV) I Peter 1:9-12, "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    10. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11. Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."


    They, the prophets "inquired and searched diligently". They knew something is promised of grace, but it was not revealed. What was to come in prophecy was not known. It come not be told until prophecy had been fulfilled, thus that prophesied was secret and not in prophecy known. They had no name to go by, so By faith they looked forward to their salvation in the grace of God by faith looking for that to come. There was no way they could come through faith of Jesus Christ for they didn't know His name, and no blood had been let. They had to endure until the end, for all that was covering for them was the blood of animals.

    Verse 12 tells us none knew for Now do they only know. "which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." Satan didn't know, or any of the angels, so we are to believe God that no one had any idea of the "purpose" of God. The "purpose" of God is Christ Jesus our Lord.

    We are to believe His Word that no one knew. Peter writes this long after Pentecost, and has talked to Paul, and read Paul's books and "wisdom" contained therein, as witnessed in II Peter 3:15-16 , " And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you".
    16. As also in all his epistles
    , speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    The prophets "spoke" of this grace to come. Satan also knew of this "grace" to come, but he also had no idea of what was coming - "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
    6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
    7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory",
    I Corinthians 2:5-8.

    I don't believe you will find either Peter or Paul of saying they knew what God had hidden until after Damascus Road. The birth of the King was known, but who understood? A new "covenant" was coming, but no one knew anything about that New Covenant. And now that we know from what Christ Jesus in heaven tells us, we have decided, "Hey, we knew this all along. There is nothing new?" Take out the gospel of Paul that Christ gave to him, and we don't know anymore than did the prophets, other than "grace" was to come.
    Yes if we see that the Jew builds on what Peter lays down, and all today builds on what Paul lays down. Same page, but different foundations laid on the foundation of Jesus Christ. But we see in Hebrews to leave all the baggage behind that the Jew was carrying. We Gentiles are brought (and the Jew today also) differently than the Jew, as shown in Ephesians, and Hebrews below.

    Romans 15:2, "Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation."

    I Corinthians 3:10-11, " According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."


    Ephesians 19:22, " Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."


    Hebrews 6:1-3, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    3. And this will we do, if God permit."


    The Jew then could still have their laying on of hands, baptisms, etc., but these were never meant for the Gentiles.
    But none was fulfilled until Jesus Christ fulfilled prophecy. Prophecy spoke to what would be fulfilled, but did not tell who. They had no particulars on the matter. Now we know, but then they didn't. No one ever thought the Gentile would be allowed into the Temple. James and Paul are poles apart, and no amount of misunderstanding can bring them into agreement. James believe in "repent and be baptized for the remissions" for that was how he was saved, and Paul was not saved under the gospel of John the Baptist, of the "kingdom was at hand". Paul look for the rapture.
    Yes, in that day. Today there is no difference, meaning there is to be only one gospel today, and that is the gospel of Paul - Galatians 1:11-12m, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." No one heard the Christian gospel until Christ revealed it to Paul. It was unknown until Paul, just as Moses' Law was unknown until God gave it to Moses, and it became Moses' Law.

    Does Peter in Acts 2 tell those of the nation of Israel to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they will be saved?

    Does Paul tell the individual Gentile believer in Acts 16 to "repent and be baptized for the remission of his sins"?

    Was David told to believe the Great Commission of "repent and be baptized for the remission of his sins", or just to believe on the name of the "Lord Jesus Christ" for his salvation?

    Each person is saved in the dispensation that they live in. David believed what God told him, Peter believed what God told him, and Paul believed what God told him. It is only while we live that we can be saved, and when we try to be saved as was David, or Peter, will we be saved?

    I'll not take that "long shot" for Jesus' last word on salvation was given to Paul. I live in this dispensation of grace through faith not under works of the law of ordinances of the "covenant". The "rapture" comes before that "kingdom that will come".
     
  2. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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  3. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    I don’t, I choose to believe his interpretation over yours.

    No.

    Romans was written to the church of Rome, Ephesians was written to the Ephesians, Corinthians was written to the Church of Corinth, etc… You are reading someone else’s mail.

    So they didn’t come through Christ? I really don’t understand what you are saying here. You seem to be saying the Judeaizers were correct. They didn't need Paul or his teachings.

    Do you mean the Old Covenant here? If so, are you saying the Old Covenant was a Gospel?

    I believe the years of AD30-AD70 was a transitional period. Both covenants were in existence. It was during this period the NT was written. However it was only through Christ that one could obtain salvation. The Old Covenant, though still present in its outer shell, was no longer how God dwelt with man, whether Jew or Gentile.

    Did they get it? What is Jesus referring to here:

    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    My guess is your eschatology has forced you into this strange view.

    Now I’m sure your eschatology has forced you into this view. You do not believe the New Covenant of Jer. 31 is in effect yet. Correct?
     
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (God) which made a marriage for his son,(Jesus)

    3 And sent forth his servants to call them (Israel) that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

    6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

    7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (Jerusalem 70 AD)

    8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. (Israel)

    9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. (Lamb's Marriage supper)

    God intented to use Israel as a "light to the world", but in rejecting Jesus, the "light" was given to the Gentiles,

    But, did you notice what Jesus said: "The kingdom of heaven is at hand".

    The "kingdom of Heaven" is a "literal place", while the "Kingdom of God" is a "Spiritual place".

    Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    "IF", Israel had accepted Jesus, and Jesus said he would, they wouldn't, the course of the future from that time forward would have been totally different than what has occurred.

    At any rate, Israel doesn't attend the marriage supper of the Lamb with the church/rapture.
     
  5. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I don’t, I choose to believe his interpretation over yours.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    All I did was quote Paul. When we read and see with our own eyes that scripture says there was a gospel for the "uncircumcision", and a gospel for the "circumcision" we shouldn't reject His Word because we don't understand, but accept it by faith. It will become clear later on.
    No.

    Romans was written to the church of Rome, Ephesians was written to the Ephesians, Corinthians was written to the Church of Corinth, etc… You are reading someone else’s mail.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    I know 13 of his Epistles were written to me for I am a Gentile. We should believe Paul for he says the "salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."

    The heavenly gospel of Christ was sent to Christians everywhere, even in this good old UsofA. Can we limit His Word to only a few specific "towns" or churches? Are all the Baptist's lost? I don't see he addressed any. Is that the reason you don't believe what he says?
    So they didn’t come through Christ? I really don’t understand what you are saying here. You seem to be saying the Judeaizers were correct. They didn't need Paul or his teachings.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    I can only believe what Christ revealed to Paul of whom you seem to have an aversion to. Please understand you are not arguing with me or what you may think is my interpretation. The Bible will explain itself if only we will stop listening to "tradition of man" . Romans 3:30, "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
    Do you mean the Old Covenant here? If so, are you saying the Old Covenant was a Gospel?

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    Gospel is truth. There is one gospel, and it is everlasting. The gospel is to believe God as we live, as He tells us in our "dispensation". God doesn't tell us to believe as did Moses, or David; and He doesn't tell us to believe as Peter, James, and John. He tells us to believe what He says from heaven in this dispensation as we live.
    I believe the years of AD30-AD70 was a transitional period. Both covenants were in existence. It was during this period the NT was written. However it was only through Christ that one could obtain salvation. The Old Covenant, though still present in its outer shell, was no longer how God dwelt with man, whether Jew or Gentile.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    I didn't really think we were that far apart. Perhaps your aversion is to the word "gospel"? I believe the same as you, but it is difficult if not impossible to know when the "transitional" period stopped.

    I also agree "through faith" salvation today, but we don't know that until after Damascus Road. Just as the "rapture", the Body of Christ, and other New things found in the "unsearchable riches of Christ" given to Paul to preach, so is "through faith". All from the beginning (until Paul) including Adam came by faith - Hebrews 11. None could come through the faith of Jesus Christ as they lived. All I can believe is what the Spirit shows, and reveals to me.
    Did they get it? What is Jesus referring to here:

    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    In Matthew He is talking to the "house of Israel", the chief priests and Pharisees that He knows will refuse Messiah, making it impossible for the "kingdom to come" for they turned down the gospel of John the Baptist of "the kingdom was at hand". In Luke He is speaking only to His little flock. It is even more clearly put in Luke 22:28-30, "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
    29. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
    30. That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."


    I believe here you may be able to see the "special" relationship His Earthly Apostles have with Him. How many others will have "their own kingdom", and go to Christ's kingdom and eat at His table? But we are also special for we will "live with Him".
    My guess is your eschatology has forced you into this strange view.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    I believe I can back up my eschatological understanding, for scripture proves it.

    But do you not perhaps say the same thing? Above you speak of the "years of AD30-AD70 were a transitional period". And they were, but it doesn't mean all made the transition, that is those saved byfaith. It is generally accepted by record that Peter died before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, as well as James. James' "works producing faith salvation" was too strong; and as Peter showed He believed like James, not fully understanding "Gentile salvation" (Galatians 2:11-21).

    But for John being allowed to tarry, has significance and a purpose. Since John was allowed to be on this side of the destroyed Temple, with no priests to make blood sacrifice, and other rituals disbanded, I believe God allowed this Apostle to understand and accept the Gentile through faith gospel, living the latter part of his life knowing he did not have to endure until the end. He had the "peace and joy" of knowing Once Saved Always Saved salvation. God allowed John to tarry to show the Jew they could be saved just like Paul had taught and written. John's gospel says the same thing, in places, that Paul was allowed to show more than 30 years before.

    Also, I believe John was released from the hand shake with Paul of not preaching to a Gentile, for Paul was dead, Barnabas like Peter could not accept full understanding, and Titus may also have died. Also when we read scripture John was allowed to write, it sounds like the gospel of Paul. John will not even mention the word "repentance" in his Gospel or Epistles, and after the death of Christ he will not mention "water baptism" in his Gospel. He even pastured a church Paul founded in Ephesus. Yes I believe John was allowed to come to the knowledge of the "grace of the Cross" gospel.
    Now I’m sure your eschatology has forced you into this view. You do not believe the New Covenant of Jer. 31 is in effect yet. Correct? </font>[/QUOTE]Correct. I'll stick with my eschatology as yours thus far has been in error, as scripture cannot support it. There is yet the "tribulation" to go through after the rapture, so it will be awhile yet before your Jeremiah 31 reference becomes effective. You don't believe that New Covenant is of today to you? That's impossible for God today is not dealing with His nation.
     
  6. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Jesus offered the "kingdom of heaven" to Israel, a literal place.

    Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;


    But gave the "Kingdom of God" to the church.

    Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    I've known about the different "kingdoms" for sometime but had not noticed the differences in what Jesus offer Israel and gave to the church.

    The MK, being a literal place, will be a kingdom of heaven, where God (Jesus) will sit on his throne ruling, and what I see in scripture, so far, this is what Jesus offered Israel and they rejected.

    The gospel is first to the Jews because originally, God intended to use Israel as a "light to the Gentile", but they were blinded.

    Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    I wonder how much different the world would be if Israel accepted Jesus and he "literally ruled" the world for "three days" (5th, 6th, 7th)
    instead of two days "Spiritually" (kingdom of God) and one day, Literally, (Kingdom of Heaven, 7th/MK)
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    QUOTE]Originally posted by Me4Him:
     
  8. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    As I said, I had not noticed the different "kingdoms" offer to Israel/Chruch.

    Jesus/church wasn't revealed at all to Israel in the OT.

    Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    It's certainly not the same "kingdom", thy kingdom is still to come. :D :D

     
  9. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Amen to what most you say! For some reason I can't explain, I was not sure of your stance, which now is made clear. I could not tell for sure of what "church" you were coming from. There was a "church" in the Wilderness, which of course was of the Jew. We both have grown "in him". It took a long time for me to start getting the "soles of my feet dirty". I believe we are now well able to "stand" for Him. Of course, on some side issues, we may differ; but then again we may not be living on the same street in eternity, our service to Him being of a different nature.

    We leave to the "natural man", all that believe alike in their denominations, with those believing on the "name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, to be "caught up" with us, and the others entering into the promises God made to Israel, His nation, He chose for Himself.
     
  10. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,

    Evidently you have fallen for Me4Him's view of
    the Trinity:

    Quote:
    _______________________________________________
    "Yep, Leadership by both God/Jesus doesn't function at the same time, one stops before the other starts, pre trib rapture".
    _______________________________________________

    The reason you agree, evidently, rests on your
    view that God's "wife" was Israel and the Bride
    of Jesus is the Church.

    But you never did explain how the Bride of the
    Lamb is called "His wife" in Rev.19:7.

    Do you think Jesus has a Bride before the
    Great Tribulation but marries Israel as His
    "wife" after He comes with the Bride?

    If so, is God's "wife" different than the
    Lamb's "wife"?

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  11. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Read Matt 22, did Israel reject the invitation to the "lamb's marriage supper"??
     
  12. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Me4Him,

    Your reply to whether God's wife is different
    than the Lamb's wife:
    _______________________________________________
    "Read Matt 22, did Israel reject the invitation to the "lamb's marriage supper"??
    _______________________________________________

    If I say "yes", does that somehow prove Israel
    will become the Lamb's wife as you and ituttut
    teach? I take the Church to be both the Bride
    and the Wife of the Lamb according to Rev.19:7.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  13. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I have believed this for almost 70 years. Nothing new here. I believe scripture rightly divided.
    What you say above is not what I said.
    What's to explain? Revelation simply states this fact in 21:9, "…..I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." The inhabitants of Jerusalem, those that make up Jerusalem, is the nation of Israel, the Lamb's wife.
    In the above Revelation 21:9, we see the Lamb's wife, who is His bride. We know by scripture the wife is Israel, and verse nine calls her the bride. As there is not marriage in heaven, we know this marriage takes place on earth. The marriage supper of the Lamb is going to last a long, long time.

    If there is not marriage in heaven, and we in His Body are of the heavenlies, and Israel is His Bride, then our marriage takes place at the Cross on earth by work of the Holy Spirit in this dispensation, then in Spirit taken to heaven.

    I would suppose we would need to go back to the beginning of God's creation of "man". Where did we come from? Scripture says we come from God's "first" son Adam. From Adam we are born in the "old' sinful nature of Adam. We are in that first Adam, until we turn back to the Cross where we are born again into Christ Jesus. We are now in the Body of Christ, One with Him, meaning we are married to Him.

    The custom of God's nation Israel in marriage was the woman betrothed was considered "wife", that one that is his "bride", for he had selected her to be his wife. (Matthew 1:18-19; Luke 2:5). Before the actual marriage, came the "marriage supper" of the two before becoming one. We in the Bridegroom will be at the "Marriage Supper" of the Lamb. It speaks of the "marriage supper" in chapter 19; Then in chapter 21, after the "marriage supper" it is into the "marriage". It would seem to me the "marriage supper" is during the time of the "millennium", and then God will take them into eternity after the "supper".


    We are to note that Revelation is written to Israel, for we in the Body of Christ are in heaven at this time.
    It is not so.
     
  14. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,

    Quote:
    _______________________________________________
    "The inhabitants of Jerusalem, those that make up Jerusalem, is the nation of Israel, the Lamb's wife".
    _______________________________________________

    ONE: If the Lamb's wife in the eternal New Jerusalem is the "nation of Israel", what is the relationship of Gentile martyred believers (during the great tribulation) to the Lamb's wife in the New Jerusalem of Rev.21-22?

    TWO: Do you agree with EE that there will be no Gentile Christians in the great tribulation???

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  15. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    It is not so. [/QUOTE]


    Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

    Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (God) which made a marriage for his son, (Jesus)

    Mel, as you see, I didn't write the above.

    As I said, "rightly divide the "WORD"

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (Jesus)

    Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, (Jews) ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
     
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Revelation 21:22, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." We are in Christ Jesus who is the Temple, and the Lord God Almighty. In Jerusalem the Israelites that inherited the earth serve their God, they that married the Lamb. Those Gentiles that enter by "tribulation" will always be servant to the Jew. They were not "raptured" to meet our Lord Jesus Christ in the Air.
    Mel, I can't see where there are any that are in the Body of Christ, for they are raptured.
     
  17. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    ituttut,

    I think both of us believe in the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth. But your response to my question leaves me without an explanation
    for the Purpose of the Millennium:

    My Question
    ______________________________________________
    Do you agree with EE that there will be no Gentile Christians in the great tribulation???
    ______________________________________________
    Your Answer:

    Mel, I can't see where there are any that are
    in the Body of Christ, for they are raptured.
    ______________________________________________

    As usual, I don't see a direct answer.

    But if there are no Gentile Christians during
    the great tribulation, and if unbelievers who
    may repent are not "kept alive", then WHO will populate the Kingdom and WHO are the Gentiles over whom the Jews and Christians will reign with a "rod of iron"? Rev.2:25-27.

    And what is God's Purpose for the Millennium?
    ... my new topic coming from our discussion.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  18. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    It is not so. </font>[/QUOTE]Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

    Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (God) which made a marriage for his son, (Jesus)

    Mel, as you see, I didn't write the above.

    As I said, "rightly divide the "WORD"

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (Jesus)

    Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, (Jews) ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [/QB][/QUOTE]


    Very good point Me4Him. I say "not so" for Jesus does not have an "earthly" Bride before the Great Tribulation. We are told we are in Christ "spiritually".

    I detect a difference of "our marriage" and that of Israel. We are "spiritually" married to Christ Jesus, and not by "covenant" of earthly promises. That is the way we today understand marriage, as we make "blood covenant" in our carnal bodies upon marriage as did Israel that covenant being you do this, and I will do that relationship. This marriage of Israel is of "Godship" - "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people", Deuteronomy 7:6-7. Jeremiah 30:22, "And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."

    I then see a different kind of marriage for us, one of "Lordship", one of we choosing "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," John 3:16. Jesus said this on earth before Paul (Acts 16:28-31), but no one understood Jesus, as scripture proves, not even His Apostles, as they were not supposed to. Their gospel was still that of the "great commission" of "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". But Christ from heaven gave His gospel to Paul so that we could understand. Please notice God did not allow John to publish or speak these words until some 20 to 30 years after the death of Paul. All, even John, Peter (II Peter 3:15-16) and all the rest were made to understand this dispensation of God by revelation of wisdom given to Paul.

    I believe our relationship today in Christ Jesus is by our One baptism by the Holy Spirit at the Cross when we believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, where all our sins were taken care of for Christ Jesus is our repentance. We in "spiritual marriage" are sealed into the Body of Christ, becoming One with Him. We go with the Bridegroom to the "marriage supper of the Lamb" in Revelation 19:9, but not as a "Bride" for He did not "break" our blood, but we partake of His.
     
  19. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Jew interpret scripture literally, requiring "signs and wonders" as proof, that's one reason they reject Jesus's "spiritual leadership, he won't give them the signs and wonders they require.

    As the "Passover lamb", Jesus only protects the "Firstborn", he was the first born and the church is the "Body of Christ", making us the "firstbron".

    Jesus has already suffer the stripes of chastisement for the church in his flesh.

    Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    There are two feast which require a "blood sacrifice", Passover, Day of Atonement. (Trib period)

    Israel chastisement for rejecting Jesus will be "stripes in their flesh", inflicted by the AC for all who have the testimony of Christ.

    But since "Jesus's Body" (church) has already suffer the stripes, (made atonement) they will literally "Passover" the coming "day of atonement", (trib) by being rapture to heaven, pre trib, this is the marriage supper Israel was invited too but refused to come. (Matt 22)

    During the trib, some Jews will be saved, the marriage in cana, (on earth) at the start of the MK, is the "remarriage" of God/Israel.

    The "feast" explain a lot of prophecy when you understand them.
     
  20. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Amen to millennial reign.
    No Gentile or Jewish Christians in the great tribulation. Those that make it through, enduring until "their end", or the end, are "overcomers"; not Christians.
    There were only eight souls that made the boat trip, and they were told, just as in the beginning to be fruitful and multiply. We don't know if there will be eight, or eight hundred, or eight thousand, but what ever the number they will be producing, living long lives. I'm sure there will be a goodly number by the end of the millennium.
    See you there in a few minutes.
     
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