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England & the USA

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by robycop3, Nov 9, 2005.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    And who in their right minds would ever believe that the Lemba, a Bantu-speaking people of southern Africa, would, after centuries of legend and myths and traditions, end up being proved by genetics to carry in their male chromosomes a set of DNA sequences that is distinctive of the cohanim, the Jewish priests believed to be the descendants of Aaron.
    :eek:
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Let me know when you have any kind of evidence for Queen Elizabeth sitting on the throne of David or George Bush ruling over Manasseh.
     
  3. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Or that Peter lies buried beneath Saint Peter's Basilica.
    Ofcourse in both cases there waere much better clues in place than the ones underpinning British-Israelism.
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Or Jeremiah moving to Ireland.
     
  5. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Roger
    Well, my post was supposed to follow right after the one produced by LadyEagle.
    It's pretty certain that Peter lies buried beneath that pompous church they named after him.
     
  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Whoops! Guess I got a little carried away.

    Would still like to see proof that Jeremiah came to Ireland.
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    According to Scripture, there MUST be a descendant of David's ruling over at least some Israelis in every generation since David's. And some nations somewhere must receive the birthright of vast material wealth. The only people we can safely exclude from this are the Arabs, who are descendants of Ishmael. While they do have vast wealth, it's not the birthright wealth as they have no real power. But Abraham earnestly asked God to bless Ishmael, & I believe their petrowealth is God's special blessing to them.

    And Egypt is still called "the ARAB Republic of Egypt" because Ishmael's mother Hagar was an Egyptian. Thus, the Arabs can rightfully claim Egyptian descent also.

    But I'm getting off course. The fact remains at this time that there's no reason to NOT believe that England & the USA are made up largely of Joseph's descendants & are the recipient of the birthright wealth & power. God decreed this birthright to Abraham, and it was GOD who passed it on to Isaac, although he wasn't Abe's firstborn son, and to Jacob, who wasn't Ike's firstborn, to Joseph, who wasn't Jake's firstborn son, and to Ephraim & Manassah, with more going to Ephraim, wha wasn't the firstborn. After that, God mentions no more selective passing it on.

    As for Ephraim & Manassah, they, as their father Joseph, prolly lived out their lives as princes among Israel and Egypt, spending their whole lives in Egypt. After the Exodus, they were the two largest tribes population-wise, but that hardly fulfills the bestowing of the birthright, which promises almost-unlimited wealth and great national power. I shall continue to believe GOD bestowed the birthright upon England & the USA because of their unprecedented wealth and might, their close association over the last century, their common language, their not-too-different cultures, and their friendship with the Jews. England has had a Jewish PM(Disraeli) while the USA has had many a Jew holding great power(Kissinger, Brzynski, Lieberman, Cohen, & a host of bureaucrats. The only goof I've seen any of'em make is that Brzynski(before he was a Cabinet member) hired Bin Ladin to organize the rebellion in Afghanistan. (He didn't know, of course, that Bin Ladin would become what he now is.)

    NO other nation has shown such acceptance & friendship of the Jews, nor has supported Israel so strongly.

    Since the actual history is so fuzzy, I go on the undeniable evidence before me.

    As for myths and legends, SOME EVENT made someone make each of them up. The Eastern Pawnee American Indians have a legend about the sun rising and then retreating for awhile to avoid capture, while Western Indians such as the Modocs and Shoshonis have a legend about a long night. It was many years after white men first heard those legends before anyone linked them with the sun's retreating for Hezekiah. Now, who can say that the Irish legends about their kings are all tall tales? The ONE thing in the equation that is NOT legend, that is ALL TRUTH, is SCRIPTURE. and GOD said that there would ALWAYS be a descendant of David's ruling over at least some Israelis. Does anyone actually know where the Tuatha de Danaans originated? Or the people later known as the Picts of Scotland?

    Again, the only CONCRETE facts we have is SCRIPTURE. And we Christians KNOW that Scripture cannot be broken. And Scripture promises a birthright blessing of great material wealth & power to Joseph and an unending dynasty to David. As I said at first, I'm open to any other fulfillment besides that which I presented, but I am NOT open to those Scriptures' prophecies not coming to pass.
     
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Then please show me Bible evidence that England is Ephraim and the US in Manasseh, not conjecture based in what "must be" true based on myths and legends.

    I have no problems with people choosing to believe their own views of history. Just let's not try to pass it off as REAL history.
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I do NOT believe that happened; I posted a link in the first post that seems the more likely explanation.

    It's simply impossible for us to know what became of ALL of David's sons. We know his throne remained in Judah till the fall of Zedekiah, and shortly before that God spoke to both Ezekiel and Jeremiah, reminding them that He had made David's dynasty eternal. Nowhere in Scripture is it even hinted that Jesus carried that rulership to heaven after His resurrection, in fact His parable depicts Him as a NOBLEMAN(not yet a king) who went on a long journey to RECEIVE A KINGDOM, that is, the authority to be king. When he returned in the parable, it was as king, and he swiftly wielded his power as king. Many other Scriptures say Jesus will return TO SIT UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID, to make His kingdom worldwide.
     
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    This is 100% accurate.
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    John 1
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Just to re-align our (or mine anyway) priorities.

    HankD
     
  12. CarolinaBaptist

    CarolinaBaptist New Member

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    While there is nothing in our Bibles that states that England is Ephraim and the USA is Manasseh, it does not remove the fact that there must be people living in the earth today as numerous as the stars of heaven and the sand of the seashore, just as God promised to Abraham. There must also be a descendant of David ruling over Israel in these latter days somewhere in the earth(Jeremiah 33:17-21). Where did all of those Israelites whom Josephus stated as living outside of Palestine that could not be numbered actually go. It is curious that at the same time in world history that the House of Israel dropped off of the map that different tribes began to sweep across Europe with their destination as the British Isles and northwest Europe. Why did Christianity spread westward to Europe? Were the disciples searching for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel? It is also interesting to note that the history of the germanic tribes can be traced back only so far. Could this be the fulfillment of Hosea 2:6? If I were a detective searching for Lost Israel and I took all of the biblical marks to identify them, I would probably stake my career in identifying them as being found in Europe, the British Isles and her colonies. We would do well to remember tht there is an element of truth in most legends and to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just my humble 2 cents.
     
  13. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Since the Bible says that Jesus told the Apostles to go to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel," why would it be wrong to assume they followed His instructions? And, if they obeyed and did go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, then the "claim that Christianity was brought to Glastonbury by the Apostles" would leave one to deduce that some of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" were in the British Isles and the traditional claim or "verbal history" is, indeed, based in fact, as noted in the source below.

    From Wikipedia:

    Wikipedia
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Amazing the lengths people will go to trying to prove a point that has no solid evidence.

    The wonderful thing about early history is that if it fits my point of view I can find enough legends and myths to support it.

    Since Mardoc of Wales might have sailed to Mobile and Brendan of Ireland might have sailed to America well before 1000 AD why do we need England? Why can't we just claim that the US is modern day Israel and claim all of the promises of God for ourselves?

    Read this quote from the post above by Wikipdia

    I am something of a historian. I am still looking for the first glimmer of documentation of this "history." If this so important. If England truly is Ephraim and the US truly is Manasseh don't you think that the designer of all history would have given us some shred of evidence? The Bible passages referred to are vague and general. They never mention England or the US. The historical records are anecdotal and based on tradition and verbal history.

    All I want is one scrape of hard evidence. Can anyone produce it?
     
  15. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Interestingly enough all the hard evidence we have when it comes to groups of Jews scattered accross the globe points to obscure groups like the Lemba instead of the English speaking world.
     
  16. CarolinaBaptist

    CarolinaBaptist New Member

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    For those that do not believe in the possibility of Israel being found in England and the USA, would you mind stating your beliefs about modern day Israel(the people, not the little Jewish nation in the Middle East). How do you believe God fulfulled His material and spiritual promises to Abraham, Isaac,Jacob and David?
     
  17. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Like everyone else who is honest, I don't know. I have NO, none, not any evidence that God's promises are fulfilled by England and the US, so neither I, nor anyone else really KNOWS.

    It is all guessing and conjecture.

    Remember, all I want is one scrape of solid evidence from the word of God or history.

    God's ways and His thoughts are not our ways and thoughts.
     
  18. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Originally posted by LadyEagle:
    And, if they obeyed and did go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, then the "claim that Christianity was brought to Glastonbury by the Apostles" would leave one to deduce that some of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" were in the British Isles and the traditional claim or "verbal history" is, indeed, based in fact, as noted in the source below.

    Jesus specifically told them not[/i] to go to the Samaritans, who could boast some Jewish blood. In this case, I think, "lost sheep" refers not to people physically "lost," but to the "sheep without a shepherd" mentioned in Mark 6.

    Anyway, that deputation was superseded by Jesus in Matthew 28 when he told them to "make disciples of all nations."

    I would not say there were no Israelites in Britain at an early date, though there is no proof for it. It seems to me to be immaterial.

    ... the "claim that Christianity was brought to Glastonbury by the Apostles" would leave one to deduce that some of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" were in the British Isles and the traditional claim or "verbal history" is, indeed, based in fact, as noted in the source below.

    No, there is no necessarily correlation between the an early introduction of Christianity to Britain and the contention that children of Israel may have settled there.

    Tertullian and Origen mention the existence of a British church, but that's a far cry from supporting any legend about Joseph of Arimathea or a supposed Jewish colony in Britain.

    One should not discount legends out of hand, but they are suspect without good documentation. A case in point: At a pre-Civil War post I visited, a marker from the Daughters of the Confederacy proudly says that Jefferson Davis occupied a certain building about the time of the Mexican War.

    I mentioned this to the site's historian, who said it was unfortunate. Davis had indeed been posted there, but he had not occupied the building; it was used by another unit. This was a story that grew up in less than a century in an era of copious governmental records; you can imagine what you can do with a bit of unwritten data if you're given a few centuries or so to embellish it.
     
  19. CarolinaBaptist

    CarolinaBaptist New Member

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    In Antiquitates Apostolicae, the Greek historian Metaphrastes states on page 45 "Peter was not only in these western parts but particularly he was a long time in Britain, where he converted many nations to the faith." On page 148 we see the statement that "after the death of Stephen, James came to these western parts, particularly into Spain where he planted Christianity.

    In De Demonstratione Evangelii, Lib. 111 Eusebius(260-340 A.D.)states "the apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called Britannic Isles."

    A further historical witness occurred at the Council of Pisa in 1409 when the ambassadors of France and Spain claimed to be the eldest daughters of the church in the west. The French and Spanish were informed by the Council that they "must yield precedence to the British Church as this had been FOUNDED BY JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA immediately after the Passion of Christ." This ruling was upheld at the Council of Constance 1417, Sienna 1424, and Basle in 1434. Archbishop Ussher even stated that the basis of this claim was the burial of Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury and the donation of twelve hides of land. The Domesday Book, published in 1087 tells us of: "The Domus Dei, in the great monastery of Glastonbury, called the Secret of the Lord. This Glastonbury Church possesses, in its own ville XII hides of land which have never paid tax."

    In Historia de Rebus Britannicis(540 A.D.) Maelgwyn writes," The Isle of Avalon greedy of burials, received thousands of sleepers, among whom Joseph de Marmore from Aramathea by name, entered his perpetual sleep. And he lies in a bifurcated line next the southern angle of the oratory made of circular wattles by thirteen inhabitants of the place over the powerful adorable Virgin."

    Surely all of this cannot be just pure conjecture and fantasy. There are too many whispers from world history telling us that the Apostles came to Britain and planted the Faith of our Fathers.
     
  20. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    "Surely all of this cannot be just pure conjecture and fantasy. There are too many whispers from world history telling us that the Apostles came to Britain and planted the Faith of our Fathers."

    Of course it could be. Maybe not, but it could be.

    Metaphrastes didn't write until the 10th century and largely codified the Byzantine hagiography that had accumulated over the centuries.

    Eusebius nowhere specifies which apostles went to Britain.

    The Council of Pisa had every incentive to recognize the antiquity of the British church; the schism had resulted in two popes, and the British, being neither French nor Italian, were being courted.

    The ancient origin of Glastonbury, so far as I know, is not in question. The legends are.

    Maelgwyn's work is not extant; the story was passed on by William of Malmesbury in the 11th century.

    And none of these legends (which often contradict each other) have anything to do with whether the lost tribes made it to Britain.
     
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