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Featured Enigmas and inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alcott, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Try to answer these, or instigate your own...

    When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him [Deuteronomy 18:22].
    So how is Jonah not disqualified as a prophet? The Lord did not destroy Nineveh, as Jonah had spoken in His name. Indeed, does this put a different perspective on Jonah's anger when he did not see the city destroyed?-- that the Lord set him up to be a false prophet? I had thought that Jonah [naturally] hated Nineveh and wanted it to be destroyed.

    Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come
    [Matthew 12:32].
    A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean" [Acts 10:13-14].
    It is clearly indicated it is the Holy Spirit who is talking to Peter here, and slightly later, v. 9 says so plainly. So if Peter was commanded to do something by the Spirit and he said "By no means, Lord..." how did he not speak against the Holy Spirit, and thus can never be forgiven?
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

    The Pharisees called the work of the Holy Spirit demonic, here Peter is simply complaining as we all do on occasion.
     
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  3. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Complaining isn't "speaking against" the one who instructs what one is complaining about?
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    No. Complaining is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
     
  5. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    V. 31 does use the word blasphemy, but v. 32 uses the term "speak against." Are they the same word/term actually [I don't know and I've never heard that]? But if the differ in degree, why would Jesus have used the lesser of the 2 when declaring whether forgiveness is possible?
     
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The core of their blasphemy is not simply a complaint, the pharisees were saying the miracles of Jesus were demonic in nature.

    Peter was complaining but not telling Jesus what He was saying was demonic.
     
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  7. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    You see a lot more words in that passage than I do. And, if you think about it, Peter is implying that whoever is talking to him is telling him to do something evil, declaring he has never eaten anything "unclean."
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK then what is your point? Is God evil?
     
  9. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Active Member

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    Since you are splitting hairs here, Peter responded to the voice in the vision by saying, “Lord.” When the Spirit spoke to him afterward, while contemplating the vision, he obeyed. In the Pharisee passage, Jesus clearly said speaking against the Son of Man could be forgiven, but not speaking against the Holy Ghost.

    Another point: the Pharisees were not saying the miracles weren’t miracles, but that they were of Satan. Peter did not say the voice or command in the vision was of Satan, only that it did not seem to jibe with what God had already said.

    But, in general, you seem to be trying to build a second case without having clearly established the first. It is obvious that nowhere is Peter ever considered in danger of being in an eternally unforgiven state. This would indicate that Jesus, in Matthew 12, was not talking about such a circumstance as in Acts 10.
     
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  10. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    The question would be: 'is that Peter's point?'
    My point in this is that Peter said no to God and used the word "unclean" to what he was being told to do. Carelessness with how we respond is one point. But you don't address anything in this other than to keep saying Peter's words were just complaint and he didn't call the Holy Spirit's work demonic.

    Perhaps a historical case may put some teeth into this. In the Great Awakening of the 1730's-40's, obviously Whitefield and others who traveled and preached and saw the responses thought their work was of God. But many leaders of longer established churches, who saw this kind of activity as a threat to their positions and power said it was the "work of the devil," citing scripture passages about submitting to the elders and the civil authorities (which they had great influence over) and that things be done 'in order' rather than in emotional preaching and responses in a meadow.

    Was it blasphemy against the Spirit to say the evangelists were doing the work of the devil? Or were they indeed doing the work of the devil by not conforming to more 'conventional' churches and styles, as those passages do seem to indicate?
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Jonah did what he was told, eventually. God "changed His mind". It is clear from the text that Jonah feared God would forgive them if they repented, which He did, not that God might make him to be a false prophet.

    Many of God's prophecies had conditional elements, i.e."such and such destruction will come upon you unless you repent..." and so forth. We don't know everything Jonah said. He doesn't appear to put forth a lot of effort. The people responded by believing the prophecy and hoping widespread repentance would appease God's anger. So, the people saw Jonah as a true prophet of God.

    Context, also, is that there were many court "prophets" that would advise the king. Isaiah and Jeremiah both faced these competing prophecies. I think that is what is being referenced in Deut 18.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I don't know. God knows and He will handle them.

    To accuse without evidence is to break the ninth commandment.

    If we step out of the boundaries of grace we bring ourselves into the realm of Law.

    We are often accused of sins by non-witnesses on the testimony of one person, this is also to bear false witness.

    To lie in the venue of the church and church matters may not be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (though it might) but remember Ananias and Sapphira and their chastisement.

    The sin unto death in 1 John?
    It would seem then however this sentence is probably not given in every case out of God's mercy.
     
    #12 HankD, Oct 11, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The word in v. 31 is the noun blasfemia, (thus, "blasphemy" in English) which means an insult. The phrase in v. 32 is translated correctly with the preposition "against" from the Greek prepositional phrase beginning with the preposition kata.

    It seems clear in my mind, if not yours, that Christ is using Hebrew parallelism to make the point. Therefore, the "blasphemy" in v. 31 and "speaking against" carry the same meaning in the passage. However, Peter did not "insult" the Holy Spirit, but made a logical (in his mind) objection based on OT Scripture. He did not commit the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

    So, a simple look at the original Greek (remembering the Hebrew idiom) easily solves your problem. Others have easily answered your Jonah conundrum, so I won't bother.
     
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  14. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    You're saying that the two terms "carry the same meaning," but one means one thing and the other something else? Okay.

    BTW what I post as to meaning does not necessarily mean it's my own view, but for discussion, especially about 'literalism.'
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Do you know what Hebrew parallelism is? If you don't, you have no idea what I was saying.

    I don't know what you are talking about here. Why would you post something not your view, and then expect us to know that?
     
  16. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    According to you, it "carries the same meaning," yet means something different. Is that it?

    BTW what I post as to meaning does not necessarily mean it's my own view, but for discussion, especially about 'literalism.'
    You missed the last 6 words.
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So you don't know what Hebrew parallelism is. That being true, you cannot properly exegete the passage.

    No, I didn't. I still don't know what you mean. You were not clear.
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    If you can explain Hebrew parallelism and how it helps explain this issue, I would like to hear it.
     
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    I'm not John but I may be able to help. Hebrew poetry seldom uses rhyme as in English but rather uses parallelism which is a structure of thought (rather than external form like meter or rhyme) in which the writer balances a series of words so that patterns of contrast or repetition appear.

    An example can be found in Proverbs 6.

    Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him.

    An example of different words having the same meaning can be found in
    Psalm 19:1

    1. The heavens declare the glory of God;
    and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    Different words meaning the same thing.

    And again in verse 2.

    2. Day unto day uttereth speech,
    and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

    Different words meaning the same thing.
     
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  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You find the same thing in Mary's Song in Luke 1:46-47, which is one reason for being sure that Mary composed it (she being a Jew and all) rather than Luke, a Greek.

    "My soul magnifies the Lord,
    And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour."
     
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