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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by tyndale1946, Nov 6, 2022.

  1. Cathode

    Cathode Active Member

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    We are not a sack of potatoes.

    Jesus tells us to do the keeping, keeping His commandments, that’s a continuing thing throughout life.

    “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love”
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 3:23, ". . . And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. . . ."
    John 3:16, John 13:34.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 3:14, ". . . We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. . . ."
    1 John 4:7-8, ". . . Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. . . ."
    1 John 4:19, ". . . We love him, because he first loved us. . . ."
    1 John has 29 verses on the subject of love. The gospel account by John, 39 verses.
     
  4. Cathode

    Cathode Active Member

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    So the point being that people who were once branches of the vine, did not remain, they withered and burned.
    By no longer keeping to Christ’s Word.

    To hold grudges and hatred is to no longer remain in Christ’s love. People cut themselves off from the life of the vine.

    As branches of the Vine the fruit we must bear is love, mercy, and forgiveness in keeping with the teaching of the Lord.

    “The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.“

    We are forgiven in proportion to fruit of forgiveness we bear.

    Branches with no fruit are cast into the fire.

    We must remain in the vine to receive its life and promises.
     
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that assertion lifts man up above God and contradicts scripture.

    There are many warnings to us to persevere in faith. This is evidence of the faith God has given, not human effort to remain in God's grace.
    Scripture tells us this, in regard to our salvation and God's grace:

    *Matthew 19:25-26*
    When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

    *John 10:25-29*
    Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    True.
    Galatians 2:21, ". . . I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. . . ."

    Romans 10:4, ". . . For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. . . ."

    1 John 3:4, ". . . Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. . . ."

    James 2:10, ". . . For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. . . ."

    Romans 6:14, ". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ."

    Galatians 5:18, ". . . But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. . . ."

    John 14:15, ". . . If ye love me, keep my commandments. . . ."

    1 John 3:23-24, ". . . And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. . . ."
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Jesus is the true vine. Those who are in the vine are those for whom Christ died. Only those whom Christ saves remain in the vine.
     
  8. Cathode

    Cathode Active Member

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    Jesus wouldn’t tell people to remain in His Love, if if wasn’t possible for them to not remain in His Love.
    People choose.
    “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my Love.” Optional.

    Yes by Grace, but we must cooperate with Grace as it falls daily and throughout life.

    The predestination spoken of is in the foreknowledge of God, God knows who will cooperate with His Grace, choosing Him and remaining in Him.
    No one can snatch them away.

    By keeping His commandments we remain on the vine, by not keeping to His Word we fall from Grace, a branch that falls from the vine, that withers and is burned.

    If people choose sin and hatred, they are cut off from the vine, they are fallen from Grace.

    People must keep to Christ’s Word, cooperate daily with His Grace to Love and forgive others as life rolls out.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5:9-13, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    A name popped into my head this morning, Mr Ed Schultze who took me to church and to Father & Sons breakfasts after my father died. Very Christian man who made an impression on me. God bless him!
     
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  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    You reminded me of this old sacred hymn by William Cowper... God Moves In A Mysterious Way... Brother Glen:)

    God moves in a mysterious way,
    His wonders to perform;
    He plants his footsteps in the sea,
    And rides upon the storm.

    Deep in unfathomable mines
    Of never failing skill;
    He treasures up his bright designs,
    And works His sovereign will.

    Ye fearful saints fresh courage take,
    The clouds ye so much dread
    Are big with mercy, and shall break
    In blessings on your head.

    Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
    But trust him for his grace;
    Behind a frowning providence,
    He hides a smiling face.

    His purposes will ripen fast,
    Unfolding ev'ry hour;
    The bud may have a bitter taste,
    But sweet will be the flow'r.

    Blind unbelief is sure to err,
    And scan his work in vain;
    God is his own interpreter,
    And he will make it plain.
     
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  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You are reading your non-Bible philosophy into the interpretation. The Bible text does not state what you do. You have to insert your ideas into the argument. Therefore, you must let the text tell you what Jesus is saying. There is nothing in the text that matches with your assertion.
     
  13. Cathode

    Cathode Active Member

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    Jesus said that if people keep His commands, they remain in His Love.
     
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  14. Cathode

    Cathode Active Member

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    I’m afraid yours is the boutique interpretation, OSAS has no history before Calvin, not one person in all Christianity taught it before him.
    The majority of bible alone Christianity and Christianity in general believe salvation can be lost.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A number of things with this. The explaination I gave is not understood by either group.
    The cross references also not understood by either group.
    John 15:6 with 1 John 3:6 gives the reason for not abiding.
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The OSAS group states that you just say a prayer (maybe the rosary) and your in. There is no biblical support for that.
    There is biblical support for the perseverance of the saints. That those whom God gives to the Son, will in no way be plucked out of Jesus hand.
    You see, Cathode, our salvation entirely depends on God. If He fails to keep us, we are doomed. If we do all the requirements of the church, but God never gave us to the Son, we are doomed. It's not by our cooperation that we are saved. It's by God's grace that we are saved. It is by God's gift of faith that we are justified and we persevere. If you didn't persevere in faith, you were never given by God to the Son. Instead, you attempted to get to the Son by your own works. You fell short. You are damned.
     
  17. Cathode

    Cathode Active Member

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    “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”

    The path to salvation is taken daily throughout life, we participate by the daily grace we cooperate with, that’s what leads to salvation.

    The Lord’s Prayer is a daily prayer.

    Give us this day our daily bread. We receive daily graces which we use to take us that daily step closer to salvation.

    If salvation was granted in one instant, there would be no need to ask the The Father for our daily bread.

    The Israelites were not saved instantly, it was a daily process till they reached the Promised Land. It depended on God, but the people had to cooperate with God.
    Many didn’t, many sinned and rebelled and were destroyed.

    The Israelites received their daily bread on their path to salvation. They could say they were saved, so long as they took the daily path of being saved.

    That’s why Jesus tells people to remain in His Love, the daily keeping of his commands keeps us in His Love.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. And Jesus was speaking when He was the mortal man before He went to His cross. As a figure of speech, we in some way can follow Him now, with Him as our immortal mediator between us and knowing God, John 17:3. John 14:6.

    You seem to fail to understand forgiveness requirement as given in the Lord's teaching on how to pray as given before the cross, how it is different in the New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:34, Hebrews 10:17.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Everything you speak of is the Pilgrims Progress. It is work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying us throughout this time on earth. It is not the process of salvation. Salvation is by God's grace alone, apart from our works so that we cannot boast. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

    Sanctification is that process of the Spirit in making us holy, like our Father is holy. In sanctification we do, indeed, cooperate...or don't cooperate. Paul expresses this in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

    According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

    We still are saved, by God's grace, but the works we did burn up...but not we ourselves.
     
  20. Cathode

    Cathode Active Member

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    Salvation is a sanctification process by grace.

    OSAS is not taught in scripture.
     
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