Entertainment as bait?

I'm impressed with your ability to articulate when grouchy.

 

So you would say that when Jesus ate with sinners that was using carnal means to reach people?

All ignorance of God and the Bible results from ignorance of scripture and having a relationship with the living God.

To know about erroneous Christianity I do not need to read any church history or know about total depravity. All you have to do is to read the Bible from the first century church and you will see departures from Christianity then. It is quite obvious.

 

:laugh: You really give me a good laugh. You accuse me of liking nothing but arguing and you tell me to grow up and then you make this statement. You are a real comedian.

I'm sorry I forgot you were one of the folks that never has to prove anything, but everything has to be proven to you. My bad.

And we should not be surprised that you can't keep anything in context either.

 

But what makes it all intriguing is that both camps say that their approach is founded in Scripture. Does Scripture support the entertainment-bait concept that is used by so many local churches?

I believe the reference to Total Depravity and Church History in this context of discussion was phrased incorrectly.

I maintain that God is the one who is building his church and his kerygma is the means to that end, the scandal of the cross.

The means of conveying that kerygma is what is essentially at the heart of church-growth debates.

 

I think this was a very important key to your post. I don't think anyone is saying you can't go out after church and have a burger or something like that.

I think that's great. However when you say hey why don't you come to our church service because there's going to be games and free food and what not I don't think that is a very Biblical approach.

I would agree with some others on this thread that really evangelism should be more on the unsaved's turf than on "church" turf. For some reason we bring the unsaved to church to get them saved, but I don't see any of that going on in Scripture.

As you yourself said in one post I believe, Jesus went to the sinners and ate. Of course that is a whole other issue in itself, but the idea is going out not bringing in.

Church is really for the saved.

 

You wouldn't even have to do that. It was open for anyone that showed up to the service member or non-member it didn't matter.

I don't see how using a house, a harley or a large sum of money to get people in the door is a good thing. I know God takes our wrongs and makes wonderful things happen, but to think that God is okay with any and all methods to share the gospel is missing the mark.

 

The more I thought about your response, the more it troubled me.

I'm not angry at you...not much in Digital Land gets to me. But it does concern me...I do not want the job of determining one's heart, and knowing their eternal destiny.

My methods were Biblical--this guy's sincerity was unquestionable. His faith was evident (he had already taken care of a few things in his life he needed to, such as dipping--all on his own, with no "instuction" from me.) His desire to please God was palpable. Imagine that.

Will he be SuperChristian at age 35? Who knows? He might even go 24 hours without sinning :laugh: :laugh: (whoops! I'm channelling another thread).

But as of now, I like what I see. And I see no reason to doubt his commitment.

 

I'll take that as you can't offer Scriptural proof that fun is worldly (sinful). I don't have to prove anything here...it's on you, you made the statment. I won't be holding my breath.

 

To throw this thread further into a spiral, does someone want to tell me why people keep bringing up Jesus Christ eating with sinners, harlots, publicans and the like and having fellowship with them.

We are not called to have fellowship with unbelievers, in any form or fashion. We are not equal to Jesus Christ nor above him. He was able to prevail, He is the Son of God. He won over temptation in the wilderness, He beat temptation. What makes us think that we can do that same, we can't, we are not Jesus Christ.

Why would we be instructed to not have fellowship with unbelievers if we were able to fight against temptation and against their influence as Christ did. BECAUSE WE CAN'T. And God knows that.

We are not to live on their level, but to bring sinners to ours. Jesus Christ may have eaten with them, but he also caused conviction within them to draw them closer unto him. Fellowshipping with unbelievers and not having the gospel message does not create salvation, it misleads them into a false idea of Christianity. Hence so many false conversations in the church today. Conviction of sins by the law has been removed and repentence as well. Someone may pray the prayer, but they are just sampling what you have to see what its like. He did not fellowship with them and then left them unchanged.

I just thought I would throw this out there.

 

Define "fellowship". It seems like you are equating friendship with fellowship.

 

What is the bible's definition of fellowship? What is it equated to? I don't care about my definition, my opinion doesn't matter or ideas doesn't matter.

 

You know what the problem with both approaches seems to be? There is no continuing education. Get 'em to make a profession and then leave the newborns to figure it all out on their own.

VBS is a great tool IF there is continuing interest in making sure the new converts are fed. Cold witnessing on the streets to folk we don't even know is a great tool IF there is continuing interest in making sure the new converts are fed. See the similarity?

If folks are getting saved and then not returning are we sure they weren't saved or was there a lack of interest on the part of the leader(s) in making sure they started growing as Christians? Follow up and discipleship are important!

 

I have read the post on this subject and shake my head. I am a youth minister. I been at it for several years. I kinda have a grasp of the issue.


Some people don't like any kind of music but hymns. To each their own. These people bashing certain types of music need to listen to it. Rich Mullins lyrics are some of the most spiritual lyrics ever wrote. Chris Rice will bring you into the throne room. Third Day and Casting Crowns are very very good.

If game night will bring kids in to hear the Gospel than it is worth it. I have seen hundreds of teens saved through lock-ins, bowling trips, concerts, or movie nights. That makes it worth it to me.

As far as seeing them grow. I have several kids now in the ministry. I have kids teaching Sunday School, Deacons, and heading up other areas in their church. Yeah, we have fun and will continue as long as I work with them!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is exactly why I think entertainment as bait as the OP has put it is a very dangerous practice. And that's why I like the quote that I have put up. If you win them with a circus it's going to take even more to keep them.

Discipleship is a long, hard, costly process and how are we going to be able to make disciples when we have to say okay we got you with the pizza and what not, but now it's time to get down to business.

Well that's the whole point we don't. And this is evidence by what we have going on in our churches. Our churches are primarily for discipling the saved, but there is very little discipling going on. We're still about fun and games and worried about winning the unsaved.

For example a church that I went to in this area had this philosophy . . . the preacher said you won't get deep teaching from the pulpit. That is what you are going to get in Sunday School. But the Sunday School director said oh no you're not going to get deep teaching in Sunday School because Sunday School is for developing relationships. He said the deep teaching will come during Bible studies during the week and develop out of your SS class.

This church ran well over 1,000 folks and I taught a Bible study course on Wednesday night at the church and only had 4 people that came. There were a couple of other classes that were taught that had less than 20 folks in them. I also taught a men's Bible study class that we only had three regular attenders, including myself and a third that would show up every now and then.

Discipleship is hard and costly and there aren't a lot of Christians that want to be discipled anymore.

The church is in a sad state today.

 

What draws them, will keep them. Is the Holy Spirit doing the drawing? or is it the promise of games, sports and parties that is drawing?

 

This pretty much sums it up.

There's nothing wrong with entertainment in and of itself.

But, it's the position that it plays.

If they come for the circus, you'll have to give them a circus every week. If they come for the fellowship, they'll enjoy the circus when it's there.