Entire Sanctification/Sinless Perfection

HP: As a general statement one can say that God indeed ordains governments, but that is not to say that God ordains all civil laws. Civil laws reflect the specific needs of a particular society as decided upon by the ruling class, and may not in the least reflect anything in particular that God ‘ordains.’ That is not to say that one should not obey the laws of man as long as they do not contradict moral principles instilled within us via conscience or Scripture. Society could not be maintained in any reasonable manner apart from the willing obedience to its dictates.

HP: Human governments in no way ‘make the laws of God.” Good government should always pattern their laws after the immutable laws of God.

HP: That totally depends upon the law that man has set up. If the laws of man violate the laws of God, we are under obligation to disobey man’s laws.

HP: I smell no fish. Some societies have so corrupted themselves that man is compelled by conscience to rebel and often form new governments. Our nation would not exist today if men would not have refused to submit to unfair, unwise, and repressive laws of man. The mere fact that you recognize that the law of pirates are not ordained of God, is reason to believe that you would be wise and understand that some governments have instilled laws just as repressive and wicked as that of a bunch of pirates.

HP: Intent is everything concerning morals. God alone will be the judge of that. I am thankful I have never been placed in a situation that I would have to face the question you raise. As a general principle, lying is indeed wrong. Just the same, sin is above all else selfishness. I can see some instances in history that lying was not done in any selfish manner, and that it was done to deceive the enemy of life, liberty, and well established God-ordained moral principles, therefore I believe morally acceptable ion such cases. I will not be the judge of any such cases. God alone will be their judge, and mine as well if I would ever happen to encounter such distressed circumstances. I pray that I will not ever have to face such circumstances.

HP: Absolutely I do. Just the same, temptation does not come without thoughts of selfishness. As you so aptly point out, temptation is not sin. We have often heard that one cannot keep the birds from flying over our heads, but we can keep them from building a nest or roosting there.

HP: Are you the judge of the thoughts and intents of another man’s servant? What may appear to you as sin may not be in the case of another. Just as you at one time told us that if we break civil law we would be in violation of God’s law and be sinning, I can tell you unequivocally that that may not be the case. Just the same, you are correct in that we have to guard against judging sin in our lives as mere mistakes. I cannot help but wonder what would that be to you, seeing you believe they have already been paid for? For one that feels that one could be in the very act of adultery and still make it to heaven if one was to die while committing such sin, I cannot see the validity nor the seriousness of your admonition and accusation of one that would call sin a mere mistake. It would appear to me that you are more interested in building a case against one claiming to live in obedience to God’s Word than worrying about transgressing His law.

HP: If there was no intent to selfishly deceive, especially in the case you mention when one did not have knowledge of something being told that may not have been factual under different light, it is NOT sin, and is indeed a mistake. Intent must be established as being selfish for sin to be predicated of the intent.
Quote:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

HP: Not to God! It is a gross miscalculation of the nature of righteousness to associate it with filthy rags as you do here. No such association is every seen in Scripture. God rewards righteousness. The Scripture you are referring to may in fact be referring to more than one idea. Our righteous has NO power to save, and we as sinners cannot do enough good works to ever atone for a single sin, and in THAT case are seen as useless. Just the same, God calls upon us to be righteous, not filthy rags. To equate righteousness to filthy rags would be paramount to saying God associates righteousness just the same as sin, obedience just as disobedience, holiness just as sinfulness. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even David stated that Ps 18:20 ¶ “The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.”

Shall we equate righteousness and obedience as no more worth to God than filthy rags? That is simply absurd unless you are going to clarify what in fact it is that righteousness will not and cannot atone for.

There is yet another take on that verse “all our righteousness is as filthy rags.” that has been suggested by some. A new Jewish bride was given a piece of white cloth to place under herself on her wedding night, as proof of her virginity. That ‘filthy rag’ or ‘menstrual cloth’ was proof of her oath of being a virgin, proving that indeed she was who she said she was, and that indeed she was truthful in that which she swore to during the betrothal period.

Even as that ‘filthy rag’ proved the honesty and validity of the brides claim of virginity, our works indeed serve as a testament and proof of our allegiance to our God.

 

HP: Even our American government has its obvious flaws. Take a good look at the confiscatory laws of property now being inflicted upon some individuals, businesses, and churches. I am sure we all could give an example.

Why do we have three branches of government? To try and balance the power and errors of the other. Which one is God ordained? Is it the law of some leftist liberal federal judge in California, or our Constitution?

We need to start thinking right about sin and what God requires out of us as believers, and our obligations to civil governments.

 

HP: Relax, it’s all under the blood DHK, bought and paid for two thousand years ago. For you to even suggest that something a Christian could do, even failing to obey the bible (such as adultery on ones deathbed) would be punishable as wrong or sin is simply suggestive that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover for such trivial matters, and in effect trampling on the blood of Christ……………or so it would seem from what I have been hearing.

 

HP: If that is not a license to sin, I cannot think of anything that could possibly be. What you have said in essence is, that it does not matter what one does if they have exercised faith at one time, nothing can affect their standing with God.

It is pure spiritual folly to talk of forgiveness or forgiveness of sins without following the Biblical mandate to repent and turn from sin, exercise faith, and continue in obedience until the end.

I certainly believe that all our sins can indeed be under the blood, but not without meeting the conditions God has set down in His Word, and reason clearly attests to.

 

It has been rightfully stated, that law without penalty might in fact be good advice or council, but it is NO law at all. In order for law and its penalty to be just, the penalty of the law must be fairly corresponding to the infraction. Scripture represents the penalty for sin as eternal separation from God.

When we set aside the penalty for sin without meeting the conditions for forgiveness that scripture mandates, upon the presumption that God will atone for such sin on account of our past faith, we have sinned presumptuously and are advocating a clearly antinomian position.

We should pray with David, Lord, keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sin.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

May it be ever so in all of our lives.

 

HP: The title of this section is “Other Denominations” and is found in the ‘Debate’ section. I am sure this section is not for everyone. There are plenty of ‘us four and no more’ boards if that is what makes one feel comfortable and secure. Freedom to honestly express one ideas is a rarity for sure, but a needed one within the diverse body of Christ. If you feel threatened by it, why frequent it? I believe any mature Christian could find an honest need for such a thread. If it is truth, you cannot stop it, and if it is error, will not the God of the Universe do right?

Be content with sharing what you feel is within the confines of truth and pray that God will open the hearts and minds of others.

PS: There is NNE on this board that I know of sharing a works based salvation. That is a paper duck you and others put up for your target practice to have something to shoot at.

 

HP: I suppose it is the very thought of 'simply another windmill to fight' that must be the driving motivation for you to participate in such debate. :smilewinkgrin: