1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ephesians 1:4-5

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Helen, Mar 17, 2006.

  1. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

    "IF" it's only appointed (predestine) unto man ONCE to die, by the Sovereign will of God,

    WHY is there a "Second death"???

    To whom is it "Appointed"?? (predestined)

    I "expect" a "complete" explanation of this "contradiction", of scripture if interpreted according to Calvin. :eek: :D
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die

    This is going to come as a shock to Lazarus, among others. ;)
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Me4Him:
    Is that question to me? If so you posted on the wrong OP.
     
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Revelation, chapter 2
    "11": He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Revelation, chapter 20
    "6": Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

    12": And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    "13": And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    "14": And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    "15": And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation, chapter 21
    "8": But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Its what I been saying all along that every man will give an account for the life he lives here, not because he was chosen to go to hell before the foundation of the world. He will meet the death of the natural man because of the sin of Adam, and there is no escape from that death, both man and child, but if he (man) don't repent of his own sins he will stand before God and be judged out of the things written in the books and be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Both soul and body.

    :D :D ;)
     
  5. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    And you're making a "classicial" mistake of believing Jews will be saved because they are Jews, God's people, the Jews of jesus's day said the same thing, "we have Abraham to our father", but Jesus said their father was the devil.

    "NO MAN" comes to the father except through FAITH" in Jesus.

    Faith that they didn't have, which made the devil their father.

    Jesus said when he returns he'll find faith, so the plan of "FAITH" doesn't end until Jesus returns.

    "Foreknew" is the knowledge of who would/wouldn't accept salvation, "NO MAN" gets a ticket to heaven without "FAITH" in Jesus, Jew/Gentile,

    and without "YOUR FAITH" in Jesus there's "NO ELECTION", just as Jesus told the Jews.
     
  6. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, it's not to you.

    I'm "expecting" a calvinist to answer. :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, I already did. But they won't agree. :D [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  8. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Me4, did I say that this election in chapter 11 had anything to do with salvation? You tend to read too much into what people are saying, especially the parables and the days of creation. The election (foreknowledge) of the Jews had to do with God setting them apart before they even existed to fulfil His purpose.

    I would think that you who are constantly arguing that election is not to salvation, but to something else would understand that the usages of the word election don't always refer to salvation. Context, context, context.

    But in reality, Paul does say "all Israel will be saved." Most dispies believe that all Jews alive at the end of the trib will be saved.

    What, I didn't know that was in the Bible!!! Give me a break, Me4. Do you think Calvinists have no idea what the Scripture says? But you, who will quote that Scripture til you are blue in the face ignore the scriptures that talk about God choosing before the foundation of the world according to His purpose.

    I believe Jesus was talking specifically about the Pharisees there. Don't extend that to every Jew. Hey, weren't the apostles Jews? What about Mary Magdalene, Martha, and the other Mary? The devil wasn't their father, was he?

    I agree with your point, but you really misquoted Scripture to get there.

    Luke 18:8 Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

    Do you notice that it is a question and not a statement? Try not to misquote Scripture to make your point. It doesn't work that way.

    One more time with the Greek and English lession. The direct object of "foreknew" is NOT their future decision. The direct object is "those." Paul does not say, "Those whom He foreknew would choose Him, He predestined." Paul says, "Those whome He foreknew, He predestined." It would have been a perfect place for that rascally free-willer Paul to shut all of us Calvinists up. Instead, he accidentally chose a Greek construction that supports our point. Boy, did he mess that up!

    I can only say, "duh!"

    But the election came FIRST, not faith. This is important. The faith didn't cause the election. The election causes the faith. "Those whom He foreknew, He predestined... Those whom He predestined, these He also called. Those whom He called, these He also justified. Those whom He justified, these He also glorified."

    The only person who does ANYTHING in this passage which describes the plan of salvation is God. The focus is on God. The glory goes to God. You love Him because He first loved you.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    583
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Faith is the fruit of election and not the other way around . I'll keep quoting Acts 13:48 because some folks never seem to get it : When the Gentiles heard this , they were glad and honored the word of the Lord ; and all who were appointed [ ordained , predestined ] for eternal life believed .

    Notice the order . First they were ordained for eternal life and then they believed . And we know that belief was granted to them . First things first is a very important principle .
     
  10. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    And how many time has God had to chastise them for disobedience, I suppose their disobedience was also "predestined", uh???

    Any Jews who survive the trib will be a saved Jew, but the number will be so small a child can write it.

    Isa 10:19 And the rest of the "trees" (people) of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.


    If you understand the scriptures why do you contradict God's statement of loving the whole world without respect of persons?

    Jesus was speaking to everyone who didn't have faith in him, then/now.

    All through the trib people will have so much faith in Jesus they will "literally die" to be saved, and Jesus's return ends the trib.

    So where do the plan of faith end??

    Who were the "object" of "foreknew", those whom God "Foreknew" would chose salvation, would God predestine anyone to conform to Jesus's image whom he foreknew would not chose to be saved??/

    Predestination doesn't require a person to have faith in Jesus, like it or not, faith or no faith, they're going to be saved by an "IRRESISTABLE CALL", so explain, "many are called, few chosen", without respect of persons.

    God gives the Grace of salvation, but you can't get to that grace/salvation unless "YOU" have Faith in Jesus.

    Grace/salvation doesn't come before "FAITH" in Jesus, and "CHOSING" to believe or not, is the reason God save/condemn.


    God loved the whole world, and made provisions for the whole world to be saved, without respect of sinners, to say he loved me more than the next sinner makes him a respecter of sinner and a sinner himself.

    Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

    Interpreting foreknowledge out of the "CONTEXT" of other scripture makes God a sinner, I don't think you really want to go there.
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    It is quite simple if you think about it [and Calvin is long dead and has nothing to do with the correct interpretation]. Every person will die a physical death except those living when Jesus Christ returns. When a person dies his eternal destiny has already been determined thus the statement: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [Hebrews 9:27]

    Those who die without Jesus Christ as Savior will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

    Those who have part in the First Resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

    The First Resurrection is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That resurrection is the ground of the new birth [that which is spiritually dead is made alive] and is the surety of the bodily resurrection of the believer. Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ [the First Resurrection] there is no hope for the believer, we are yet in our sins and those who are dead have perished.[1 Corinthians 15:13-18] The resurrection of Jesus Christ validates the teaching that believers have passed from spiritual death into eternal life [John 3:16, 5:25, 11:25], who upon physical death will immediately go into the presence of the Savior [Luke 16:22, Romans 14:8].

    The soul that undergoes this rebirth can never die, will never experience the second death. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the First Resurrection, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17], an inheritance that includes eternal life. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11]. Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    If the faith is of God, then why does God blame/condemn man for not "Believing", is that man's fault or God's fault,

    How about we just condemn God for not giving them the faith they needed to be saved, Tell Jesus, SORRY, your death for the sins of the whole world was for nothing, God never had any intentions of saving the whole world.

    And while we're at it, GOD, you said Jesus didn't come to condemn the world because you "loved the world", well GOD, three fourth of the world is going to hell because "YOU" didn't give them the faith they needed to be saved, so you've proved to be a lair and sinner, showing respect of persons by helping some to be saved and refusing the same help to others.


    There is a god who teaches the above, but it's not the GOD sitting on the throne in heaven.
     
  13. whatever

    whatever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith is God's gift.

    Unbelief is our fault.

    This is not difficult.
     
  14. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is quite simple if you think about it [and Calvin is long dead and has nothing to do with the correct interpretation]. Every person will die a physical death except those living when Jesus Christ returns. When a person dies his eternal destiny has already been determined thus the statement: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [Hebrews 9:27]

    Those who die without Jesus Christ as Savior will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

    Those who have part in the First Resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

    The First Resurrection is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That resurrection is the ground of the new birth [that which is spiritually dead is made alive] and is the surety of the bodily resurrection of the believer. Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ [the First Resurrection] there is no hope for the believer, we are yet in our sins and those who are dead have perished.[1 Corinthians 15:13-18] The resurrection of Jesus Christ validates the teaching that believers have passed from spiritual death into eternal life [John 3:16, 5:25, 11:25], who upon physical death will immediately go into the presence of the Savior [Luke 16:22, Romans 14:8].

    The soul that undergoes this rebirth can never die, will never experience the second death. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the First Resurrection, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17], an inheritance that includes eternal life. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11]. Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].
    </font>[/QUOTE]Right, the death that is appointed to man is the death of the flesh, the "SECOND DEATH" is the death of the soul, and it is not appointed to any man. (predestined)

    The reason Jesus die for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" was to keep "ALL MEN" from that "second death".
     
  15. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Many are called, few chosen,

    Who decides the chosen and "WHY"??
     
  16. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    If unbelief is predestined for us, then it is not our fault.

    I was born Caucasian. That was not my fault.
    I was born with a birth defect in the cartilege of my knees. That was not my fault.
    I was born in Santa Barbara, California. That was not my fault.
    I was born without artistic ability. That was not my fault.
    I was born with a sin nature. That was not my fault.

    What I did or did not do regarding any of these things is my fault.
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    583
    Faith:
    Baptist
    MFH -- you are sounding more and more like Paul's objectors in Romans 9 .
     
  18. whatever

    whatever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    1
    Many are called, few chosen,

    Who decides the chosen and "WHY"??
    </font>[/QUOTE]God does, for the praise of His glorious grace.
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    583
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Helen , your sin is your fault . You can not lay it at God's feet .
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,517
    Likes Received:
    11
    That was by God's grace. My wife's family lived in Goleta for about forty years.
     
Loading...