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ESV/TNIV in Matthew

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Rippon, Aug 20, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I will give the references , but not whole verses most of the time here . Sometimes I am addressing the grammar , and sometimes the accuracy . The ESV will be above and the TNIV will be below . At times I will reference what Tyndale said in his 1534 revision . I just bought it a few weeks ago and am enjoying it immensely .

    1:25

    But knew her not

    But he had no union with her

    2:10

    they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy

    they were overjoyed

    (William Tyndale had "marvellously glad")

    5:45

    sons

    children

    In the NET notes it says " A person who shares the characteristics of God himself ."

    William Tyndale had the word "children" in his translation .

    5:47

    your brothers ( in the ESV footnote it says : or brothers and sisters )

    your own people

    6:7

    do not heap up empty phrases

    do not keep on babbling

    W.T. = Babble not much

    6:34

    tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble .

    tomorrow will worry about itself . Each day has enough trouble of its own .

    7:1-2

    Judge not , that you be judged . For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged .

    Do not judge , or you too will be judged . For in the same way you judge others , you will be judged .

    9:10

    reclined at table

    having dinner

    10:25

    how much more will they malign those of his household . ( The footnote of the ESV says : Greek lacks will they malign .)

    how much more the members of his household .

    12:4

    the bread of Presence

    the concecrated bread

    The NET text says : sacred bread . The Greek translated would be the bread of presentation .

    12:27

    sons

    people

    W.T. : children

    13:38

    the sons of the evil one

    people of the evil one

    W.T. : children of the wicked

    NET note : people of God's kingdom .

    14:6

    danced before the company

    danced for them

    15:7

    Well did Isaiah prophecy of you

    Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you

    15:28

    O woman , great is your faith ! Be it done for you as you desire .

    Woman , you have great faith ! Your request is granted .

    15:31

    they glorified the God of Israel

    they praised the God of Israel

    16:23

    You are a hindrance to me . ( the ESV footnote says : Greek -- stumbling block . )

    You are a stubling block to me .

    17:25

    From their sons

    from their own children

    W.T. says : of their children .

    17:27

    sea

    lake ( In modern English we would not say "sea" .)

    18:34

    delivered him to the jailors ( In the ESV footnote : Greek : torturers )

    handed him over to the jailors to be tortured

    19:28

    in the new world

    at the renewal of all things

    Greek : At the age when all things are renewed .

    23:8

    Both the ESV and TNIV have "brothers" . But what is interesting is that the ESV footnote says : or brothers and sisters .

    24:19

    Both translations have the word "pregnant" . But in 1:18 the ESV has " found to be with child " . Why couldn't the word pregnant be used there if it is acceptable enough to be employed in 24:19 ?

    25:37

    or thirsty and give you drink ( We just do not speak like this anymore .)

    or thirsty and give you something to drink

    26:63

    I adjure you ( Who talks like this these days ? )

    I charge you under oath

    27:3

    changed his mind ( Kind of weak , don't you think ? Judas hanged himself two verses later . To use the phrase changed his mind sounds so nonchalant .)

    seized with remorse ( now that is much more suitable for the occasion . Even J.B. Phillips has "overcome with remorse ." )

    27:7

    they took counsel

    they decided ( This is a much more natural way of speaking .)

    27:9

    the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel ( Unnecessarily wordy .)

    the price set on him by the people of Israel

    W.T. = children of Israel

    In the NET notes it says : the people of Israel as an ethnic entity .
     
    #1 Rippon, Aug 20, 2006
  2. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    Rippon, apparently you have convinced yourself that the inferior TNIV is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But your efforts to convince everyone else are becoming quite a bother. These efforts of your have gone on ad nauseum. If you prefer the TNIV, then go ahead and use it - no one will condemn you for it. But please, please, please stop trying to convince everyone else that this inferior product is better than any other version.
     
    #2 Keith M, Aug 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2006
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Then why comment if you are not interested ? Hmm ?
     
    #3 Rippon, Aug 21, 2006
  4. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    You flatter yourself and the TNIV, Rippon. Why would I be interested in the vastly inferior TNIV? I just don't like seeing someone continually touting an inferior translation above all others, that's all! Apparently you have an agenda, and that is to convert everyone else to your way of thinking about the TNIV just as the KJVO crowd wants to convert everyone else to their way of thinking about the KJV. It appears the ignore list is going to be quite useful going forward.


    :wavey: :thumbs:
     
    #4 Keith M, Aug 21, 2006
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Keith M. , continuing to post here in order to demonstrate that he is not interested in the subject-at-hand . Strange .

    The Bible Versions/Translations are about ... Bible Versions and Translations ! Now that is a surprise . I am discussing that very subject . Notice that specifics regarding my OP were missing from Keith's posts .

    I am not on a crusade to make the TNIV THE Bible choice for all native speakers . It would be quite the accomplishment for me to convince the majority of mainstream Christians that the TNIV was merely an adequate translation , much less the best . What I am against has been the nonsensical demonization of a commendable translation . It has undergone venomous attacks . The American Christian public has blindly followed the naysayers . They think they are upholding the Word of God when they demean the Word of God !

    I think it is about time for some reasonable discussion about the merits of the TNIV . And one way of doing that is to compare it with other versions . I did not know that was a crime .

    On other threads on the BB I have quoted from other versions exclusively . Lately , I have used the HCSB to demonstrate the biblical doctrine of reprobation for instance .

    Now that I have have tried to clear the air of some misinformation perhaps we ( other posters ) can have a discussion/debate on the OP .
     
    #5 Rippon, Aug 21, 2006
  6. PeterM

    PeterM Member

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    Couldn't it be said that grammer is a tool at achieving accuracy?
     
    #6 PeterM, Aug 22, 2006
  7. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Interesting thread.

    I took the ESV with me on vacation and had a very difficult time reading it. I just couldn't keep my mind focused on the text.

    I use the NIV, so your comparison was of some interest to me. Now I know what the problem was - stilted language.

    Thanks for posting this thread.

    After my experience while on vacation, I decided that the ESV was not for me!
     
    #7 Paul33, Aug 22, 2006
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you Paul33 . Let's hear it for a more natural-sounding Bible text in English . Accuracy doesn't entail using an awkward and antiquated English style .

    For those who prefer the ESV -- more power to you . But it doesn't qualify as modern .
     
    #8 Rippon, Aug 28, 2006
  9. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    I read a critique of the ESV recently. Conclusion: the ESV is the RSV warmed over. It is not an up to date English translation despite the ESV's claim that it is. It failed to achieve the goals of the translation committee.

    I believe the reason why people turned to it is in reaction to the NIV/TNIV controversy.
     
    #9 Paul33, Aug 28, 2006
  10. sbckid

    sbckid New Member

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    The TNIV is not the best translation out there. But it doesn't necessarily derserve all the negative press heaped upon it. It does have some strong points some of which you pointed out above. I don't as of yet have a copy in print but probably will soon. I still believe in the accuracy category, for the most part the ESV is superior to the TNIV.
     
    #10 sbckid, Aug 29, 2006
  11. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    You forgot one: Matthew 27:16, 17.

    ESV: "[16] And they had then a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. [17] So when they had gathered, Pilate said to them, 'Whom do you want me to release for you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?'"

    TNIV: "[16] At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus Barabbas. [17] So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, 'Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?'"

    The TNIV relies on not a single Greek MS before the 9th century for this verse! If the TNIV is error-free here, then we all need to write Josh McDowell and tell him his book on the Bible's sure and ancient foundation is a bunch of nonsense!
     
    #11 Bluefalcon, Aug 29, 2006
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have never said that the TNIV was error-free . You must have made an error :applause: .

    The NET Bible has Jesus Barabbas . Check out their justification for the usage .

    BTW , I have never ascribed evil motives to the ESV team . Do not attribute nefarious intentions to the TNIV team .
     
    #12 Rippon, Aug 29, 2006
  13. PeterM

    PeterM Member

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    I don't think any evil motives can be attributed to Dr. Packer and the ESV team or the TNIV translators. Translating is difficult work and on most committees, there is such a high level of accountability and constant review that any questionable adgenda will come to light fairly quickly.

    Both teams seem to be made up of men of good reputation (at least among general conservative circles... not fundamentalists necessarily). Anyone desiring to do in-depth study needs to be doing their own translation work, thus relying less and less on the work of others.
     
    #13 PeterM, Aug 29, 2006
  14. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    I believe the ESV is much more accurate in the literal sense and is more faithful to the Greek. The TNIV might be considered accurate but it must be in the Dynamic-Equivalence department. I'll take the ESV :thumbsup:
     
    #14 DeclareHim, Aug 29, 2006
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