ESV Vs. God's Word

Response for questions on page 3

Man, wrote whole reply my daughter called and I deleted it accidently. Doncha just luv technology?

Rippon, I will answer your questions in order the first two and middle comment first:
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1 and 2 and comment all together.

To the original manuscripts. When I first bought an ESV, I picked it up for 3 bucks at Lifeway in large paperback. Very nice and good marketing.

Anyway, I read it through and did notice that I was picking up things I had not before and questioned its accuracy. So, I went to my preacher with all of my questions (who, at the time had a good Greek background plus multiple Greek compilations using all the major manuscripts from Byzantine to Alexandrian.

Strangly, as we compared, and he helped me (my Greek is weak although I do study it even now) to see if the ESV held to the manuscripts. In 99 percent of the verses I questioned, I could see no difference and it appeared the editors and translators were using a mixture of older and newer English. When I say older I mean maybe RSV time-frame, not 200 years ago.

Now, let me answer why I say that it is different. You had a verse that said in the ESV "the man's stomach turned" or something close. Well, in context it is obvious that this means he had an upset stomach or as half of the 30ish to younger would say "My stomach feels like I'm going to puke."

This is what I meant by "slang" changing into normal conversation.

I'm 53 (last month) and my mother would have slapped my face if I told her "I was going to the bathroom to pee." To her, it was vile and slang. Today, I still do not use it. I have heard people who are good Christians, yet much younger than me (40 down) say, in church right in front of the preacher, who is youngish: "I'll be right with you as soon as I go and pee." Back in the 60's I would tell my parents: "I need to go to the rest-room." If asked why, I would use "Number 1 or number 2."

My point is:
English words change. Now I am not a grammatical expert although I do write fiction under a pseudonymn and it is good enough to get through today's editors who will not rewrite it as they used to in the past due to the high costs. So, I have to make my characters sound real and this is very difficult and my youngest daughter (22) helps me with the dialogue. Dig it?

Eventually, this changes the style of even written language almost every generation a certain amount. Words that would never be used by an educated person are now used to communicate verbally. Go into an office and listen to a Master or Phd say: (I AIN'T gonna go there.) He is using, what we might call slang now, but may become actual language required to communicate with younger generations. Wow, is he using "Ain't"? Yes, he is making a point. Is he not going to physically "go" somewhere? Absolutely not; he is simply responding to someone who brought up a subject during a conversation and he is saying: "I am not going to discuss that because it will either get me in trouble by my response, or "we will get into a conversation we had best stay clear of."

Most people do not realize it, but most new translations are to bring the language to a modern generation rather than make that generation learn a different style of English. I must say, it is much harder for me to bring a young person to the Lord using an NIV than a KJV. They just struggle and give up because they, unlike many of us, did not grow up in church where we memorized the KJV.

It is utterly worthless to make people re-learn the old meaning of changing words, even children. Even a child in Sunday school would have his or her time used better to teach what God said, rather than how to read a KJV.

I have heard so many people say their children can read the KJV at 6 and understand it. I know for a fact when I read the KJV and gave up after a few verses because I just didn't enjoy reading it. When the Living Bible (Paraphrase) came out with its mistakes and all, I devoured it to the point my mom kept telling me to quit reading those wonderful stories and listen to the boring preacher. This lasted all the way through high-school and I'm not the only one. I was reading novels starting in Jr. High and through high school----not "young adult" novels that sell so well today because our educational system (I feel) has let our kids down in reading, math and technical skills.

If we want to reach these people and this generation we must keep updating our Bibles. It may not be right, but it is just fact. Someday I suspect in most of the Southern Middle and California, there will be a mixture of Spanish and English. We have workers from Puerto Rico who are smarter than I and I occassionally use their words such as "Buenos Dias" or "Adios". I don't know Spanish at all, but it makes me feel closer to them as friends when I use their language when I can.

Today's e-texts and e-mails are creating shorthand languages that will eventually spill into the main-stream---although not as much as I mentioned above with "I ain't gonna go there.", but changes in spelling and grammar may well occur as English evolves.

Which ancient texts to use is another matter, but today, very knowledgeable Christians feel we have within 99% of the original manuscripts through all of the comparisons and study of old documents. God's Word is living, Rippon, and it is not the period at the end of the page--it is the God's revelation to us, or what he wants us to know about him. It is up to us to use our God created brains (said to be the most complex machines found in the universe so far) to keep these living Words and Messages alive today. So, in fact, the use of his Word in the Bible may not be a good translation today. Although I am not a translator, it might be better understood as God's Message. Can't you see the change?

Finally, I said that yes, compare the RSV and ESV if you wish to study WHY the translators used the mixture of words, they did. With E-Sword you can do that side-by-side and even compare it to several Greek compilations and the KJV if you wish.

All your hundreds of lists of comparisons mean nothing to me because I have read old novels, books and letters (I'm not talking about KJV days right here.) and I pick up the meaning and I don't see your point because the meanings are the same. I have read several, getting tired of your endless quotes, to the point my eyes were tired and have yet to find one that is not the same basic meaning to the educated English reader.

Maybe you need to buy a new dictionary and an old dictionary and compare your individual words and read some letters from the civil war and try to learn the language spoken during that era.

Don't get me wrong, everybody else especially; I am not saying the ESV is an old Bible. I think it is a great translation and I love to read it and I do trust it.

Rippon if you do find a real difference, have you considered the ESV is in its first or second publication and maybe the don't have the fortune the NIV has made by their outlandish prices and marketing background to correct and reprint right away?

How many changes did the KJV go through since 1611?

Don't worry, God will preserve what He wants to tell us, he promised us he would. Maybe we need to review the language used to tell people what "jot and tittle" really meant when it was written by the man who probably spoke Aramaic and was writing in Greek. God allowed the personalities of the authors to be maintained, if you don't agree look at the quality of the Greek in Revelation compared to the book of John. Even Paul's letters are different. Go to bibletraining.org and take a live class on "heurmeneutics" sp?

I think you will go away with a much better understanding of what I am trying to tell you.

Thank you and have a great day, Lord's day and Holiday!


Phillip

 

Okay, maybe I was working on a project while trying to answer and did not understand you. But, why are you using up disk space to quote verse after verse? It sounds like you are heavy KJVO based on a quick read. Are you? If not then I do appologize to you for thinking that.

As far as "Well, perhaps you need to reconsider your role as a mod in this forum." This has nothing to do with MY response, and I have not broken any rules because I have not attacked you personally, nor do I wish to.

If I misunderstood your posts, then I appologize and if you cannot follow my posts, even with the typo's or rambling then you must understand I work for the government where projects of protecting YOUR country are my main concern and I do lot of computer work on two screens including trying to moderate and possibly add my own thoughts which may drag out or be interrupted frequently.

Once from a call from Korea from one of our explosive experts in your country. (No joke).

Are you a missionary or Korean? Just curious and will have nothing to do with our relationship. We had a group of your Generals meeting in our office just last month and our communication went quite well.

Again, for the sake of the lack of being brief I guess, (fiction writers must expound so it is a habit, although maybe bad.) I appologize again if I did misunderstand you, but I don't think you need to use up the boards bandwidth with tons and tons of comparisons.

And, no upset stomach is not a slang in my neck of the woods but in three generations may not be clear to the young reader; just a simple fact of language evolution. That may not be a good example, but it was the only one I found.

Sorry, if I write too much for you to read. You might also consider the same advice when quoting ESV vs. whatever verses. Just a friendly thought. :thumbs:

 

Brief: Not if the sales don't increase. The NIV can afford it due to sales. Market-demand and income. Basic business marketing 101.

 

You still seem to have an attitude even though I appologized (SIC). Maybe I don't have as much time on my hands protecting the people you teach English to from your enemies and it reflects while trying to type a response.

Again, I am sorry, Rippon. Maybe there is a problem in communication on your end since I did not understand your posts; after all, you printed lines and lines of comparisons that I believe were unnecessary.

As for moderator, I am not working as a moderator when I make a posts and am subject to edit by the same moderators.

I hope we can close this issue for now and get back to the subject. You seem awfully thin skinned and I do not wish to intimidate you, so I will drop the issue with you NOW and you may have the last words if you wish. I'm sorry that you could not understand my posts; my fault, but again, I'm doing a job and posting at the same time. Please understand, brother and don't let a misunderstanding bother you so much. Please. Thank you and have a good Holiday which is probably already over in your neck of the woods.

 

Rippon, I think this was out of line and merits an apology. Just because he's disagreeing with your methodology doesn't mean he's no moderator.

 

That's quite okay TomVols. I have no hard feelings, it was a statement that was easy to make when in a debate and I'm hoping he was only frustrated.

My statements were not very clear and were dis-jointed, but I would have thought that my position was understandable and I was certainly not acting in a capacity of "moderator" when I said that multiple pages of comparisons were unnecessary since most people here are on computers and have the very same (or equal) software and maybe just naming the verse references would be a lot easier on readers who, like me, may miss the point due to all of the posting that I could check out for myself from a one post list. I had to take two phone calls from ships in storms dealing with cargo that they were concerned about. (Great world when a sailor can call from a cargo ship with a satellite cell-phone to my desk.)

Rippon, I do want to say that I hear the a bit of, well, frustration on your side when I mentioned that we are protecting your people. This is not a violation of regulations of any type to inform you that the second largest stock of ammunition in the world from the U.S. Joint forces is sitting in your country and having only around 350 experts, half of which are off-site, 1/3 in your country spending seven days a week, 12 hours a day, either demilling old ammo (which in your country is not allowed to be blown-in-place IE Blown up in pits) and we are shipping machines to convert the explosives to un-convertable liquid fertilizer for food for your people; as requested by what would be the EPA of your country (don't know the name). They also must test and retest ammunition with our war-fighters who help your country with the fact you are sitting in a hot-spot where you could be over-run in two nights if the protection was not there. Don't get me wrong, I'm including your military, which is very good and well trained.

I support (as an engineer) the logistics for all U.S. made or designed conventional ammunition to four major countries outside of the U. S. and spend hours and hours making sure that the shipping and storage is done safely and effectively and will still provide lethal results (sadly) but, if required.

I can't say the other countries, except that we are obviously returning a lot of ammo from the Iraq war, or de-milling (destroying beyond further use)--even the big shells must be destroyed so another country cannot use the metal in a weapon again.

So, we are a small group, but our job is to be the experts for the ammo that is protecting you and that means, I am just as much of that support team as the team of mechanics who make sure the pilots have a plane that is effective and safe.

Your country is more difficult due to the stringent environmental laws, which is fine, but we must adher to them as much as if we were doing it in the U.S.

I do take offense to the fact that someone would question our support of our war-fighters and that our war-fighters are there to protect YOU and your country; even if it is only in an advisory capacity to your military.

Sorry Tom for getting off-track but I was offended by the attitude that I seemed to get from Rippon on those statements much more than the moderator issue.

Thank you for backing me up; however, I do appreciate it. Have a great day!

Rippon:
You too have a good day, Rippon, after all we are brothers in Christ and maybe both of us have not acted that way; I appologize again for my part; but, again have a right to remark on your posting of verses because just maybe, part of my misunderstanding was related to that. Just as you have a right to tell me I should be concise. It was a simple "opinion" of mine that multiple posts of comparisons might be misunderstood because that is a method used by a lot of KJVO's. Especially those who read Ripplinger, etc. and try to make a verse appear different when it means the same.

Are you comparing with another Bible to show error, show accuracy or what? I would have to read an entire novel to understand your motives and I was simply adding my opinion to why I may have misunderstood you.

Sorry. <<< Is that concise enough? (Joke, Rippon, Joke!!!!!) :thumbs:

 

Your country

You work there and you may be an American. If you cannot accept the people you work with as your people as much as the military tries too accept those it frees from terrorism as "ours", then you do not obviously sound like a missionary, so I assume you are just a translator over there teaching , what was it? English, because you can't stay in YOUR country and speak English, while we protect YOU and the country you are teaching in? Is that concise enough for you or do you still not get it.

If you are truly a missionary, then those are your people that you are trying to make "brothers-in-Christ" and if I were a missionary to another country (or just a teacher of English) I would also call that my country even though I would NOT still claim my beloved United States' citizenship.

That's all I meant.

Your quotes are getting ridiculous and I am not saying that from a Moderator point of view, only a poster like you. If the other moderators feel it is an attack, they can edit it just like they can edit your attacks.

Your attititude bleeds through and I am simply misunderstanding YOU because of your TONS of lists of stuff that NOBODY has time to read through to find out whether you are a Polar Bear or Elephant, or missionary to Korea under the guise of a Korean visitor teaching English.

Maybe you should be more concise. AND, while you are there, we ARE protecting YOU and the country you reside, which now is Korea, so in essence it is the exact same thing. I knew you weren't Korean by the way you talk. Most of those I have met, including the highest generals are quite polite and not sarcastic.

Look in a mirror for concise and see why I misunderstand your posts. I even tried to make a joke with you, but you came back with your personality responses. Lighten up a little, Rippon. Its not such a bad thing to have a misunderstanding.