Eternal dwelling in heaven or hell

Gina, how could "eternal life" simply mean "life with God"? Life with God is certainly an aspect of eternal life.

What is death but a separation? Physical death is the separation of the immaterial part of the body with the physical part of the body.

Spiritual death is the separation of the spiritual part of the body with the one who gave the spirit.

That is simple enough. Again, Wopik is offering man another way to escape the wrath of God. This is another gospel whether he or even you recognize this.

 

Daniel David --

You don't equate the death penalty with punishment, with wrath ?

Most of the States in the USA use death as a punishment.

Those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, "these will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

KJV - "....shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord...." (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

 

Trotter ---


Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sins, it shall die.

Not literal ? Creatures that God created and gave life [soul] to are not literal ?

Man himself became a living soul, a living being, a living person. These are all various definitions of soul.


Even in the NT soul still means life or breathing person.

Paul said there were 276 souls in the ship (Acts 27:37-38).

The OT uses this same meaning for soul - "And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls....." (Genesis 46:27).

These were literal breathing sons, not figurative sons.


In the Bible, man is a soul -- a breathing being.

 

Gina, in the second death, people will be separated from the presense of God. It isn't because they cease to exist.

Wopik, you don't have to ignore the issue, or do you?

 

Daniel David

Those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, "these will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

 

While certainly fanciful wopik, your position leaves much to be desired.

I can destroy a great many things without causing it to cease to exist.

Those who are without Christ will experience eternal separation and ruin.

Everyone please note that the rest of the verse explains what is being said. Wopik just conveniently ignored/left it out.

 

how soon christians forget that before they glorified God, they cursed him and his servants.

they were surely counted among the cursed unrighteous men destined for destruction.

but here we are..not utterly destroyed but changed.

my "old man" has become utterly destroyed.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Me2

 

Wopik,

The word 'soul' is used interchangably. I thought even a small child could see and understand this, but apparantly not.

No one can take figurative, poetic language in the OT and try to base NT theology on it, which you are attempting to do (rather poorly, I might add).

(Source: Robinson, Hadden W. Biblical Preaching Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1980, pg. 69)

By trying to take the figurative imagery of the Old Testament and juxtapositioning it upon the doctrines of the New Testament, you are creating a manticore of your own design. Although the 7th Day Adventists hold to this doctrine (as well as the door-bangers of the Jehovah's Witness), it is still false.

Why did Jesus speak so frequently about punishment if there wasn't going to be any? Jesus spoke much more about hell than He did Heaven. Why? Because there is something to it, that's why!

If all a man has to fear is a 'flash and gone' in the lake of fire, why would he care if he doesn't accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior? I mean, the thought of ETERNAL punishment just flew out of the window, so why even bother?

Man was created to live forever with God. When Adam and Eve fell, they began to die. But they (and we) are still designed to live forever. Our bodies will perish, but we will live on. It is our destination that must be decided by faith.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Trotter

DEATH is punishment; being annihilated IS PUNISHMENT. Being burned up out of existence IS eternal PUNISHMENT. You are gone FOREVER -- for all ETERNITY. Can't get any more eternal or everlasting than that.

We have Capital Punishment in the USA. That means punishment by DEATH. Taking someone's life is the most extreme form of PUNISHMENT.

 

Gina L

Justin Martyr asked a very similar question centuries ago ----

Around AD 150, a founder of Catholicism warned: "Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistic and foolish....For...some who are called Christians...say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians" (Justin Martyr, Apologies I, ch. LXXX).

http://www.northforest.org/classic/kingisrael/h002h000d010.html

 

Gina, I think I already mentioned on this thread that the expectation of the church fathers was to dwell forever upon the earth.

It wasn't until Origen (a heretic I will add) popularized the notion that the earth/carnal is evil while heaven/spirit is good. He created a dichotomy that the Scriptures don't. Even one's redemption is mind/body/soul. Augustine picked up on this and voila, a whole new theology built upon a neo-gnosticism regarding the whole matter is evil / spirit is good nonsense.

Have you ever wondered why the Bible never says anything about dwelling forever in heaven, but it does say plenty about dwelling on the earth?

I honestly think many people just assume the first two questions of EE are actually biblical (neither of them are).

 

No, death is not punishment. For those that do not believe, they already expect to cease to exist when they die. So how would that be punishment?

Burned out of existance? Poof. And it is over. The eternal wrath of God is satisfied by that?

There is no ETERNAL in being eradicated from existance. Once you are gone, there is no more eternity as far as you are concerned. Annihilationism is an easy way out, a way devised by man to sidestep the eternal damnation that God has pronounced against those who do not accept His offer of salvation.

When I was growing up, there were many ways that I could be punished. Do you know which one I would choose, every time? A whipping. Why? Because it was over and done with. Grounding, work, whatever...they all took time, and they took forever. But a little pain, and off you go. Sort of like this false gospel you are touting.

And, yes, it is false, because it flies in the face of what Jesus taught about hell and eternal punishment.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

man is created to be an eternal creature. he must exist in the absolute. although placed in this temporary finite physical realm. it is finite as all "physical" structure is finite.

the earth is temporary. its finite physical structure will be changed to a more spirit like realm. to a more absolute nature. as man becomes more absolute. we will always have the form of human beings. able to socialise and communicate. we will not recognize wether we are in an actual physical realm though..there will be no need other than familiarization.

much like jesus "physical" return. he needed nothing.
his appearance was to communicate to those who recognized him.

 

Jesus said that those who do not believe in Him will 'perish' - like a perishable item that goes through a process of degradation - and therefore, ends up ceasing to exist.


Here are two interesting books links --

Two Views of Hell

HELL on Trial

 

Dr. Bob Griffin

". . . The rich man also DIED, and was buried . . ." (Luke 16:22).

Our Bible does NOT say only the rich man's "body" died--but that the rich man went to some other place.


It says, plainly, ". . . the rich man DIED".


And what happens when people die? Just as Abraham was buried, and decayed long ago;

just as David's "sepulchre is with us unto this day," and as David is not in the heavens (Acts 2:34) but is waiting in the grave for the time of the second coming of Christ and the resurrection, so, likewise, the rich man is dead, completely unconscious; oblivious to the passing of time; is buried and waiting in his GRAVE!


Notice: "And in hell [Greek, hades] he lift up his eyes . . ." There are three Greek words used in the New Testament which are translated "hell."


The most common is hades, which means, literally, the grave.

Search the exhaustive concordances, the lexicons, the diaglotts, other translations, the Greek interlinear or any other Bible help, and you will find substantial PROOF that the Greek word hades NEVER has anything whatsoever to do with fires or infernal regions.

 

what of the wicked who have died over the many millennia? Does the Bible say that they are now suffering fiery punishment for their sins in a lake of fire?

Absolutely not!


In the sequence of Revelation 20 - read it for yourself - the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire after Satan is cast there! Read it, in Revelation 20:15.