Eternal dwelling in heaven or hell

They are not suffering in a lake of fire yet, but are suffering a la rich man in Luke 16.

The bodies of both saved and unsaved are decayed and waiting for the resurrection of the body, but until then, there is suffering for those who are lost and Christ's presence for those who are saved. Although the man in Luke 16 does not have his physical body (we would assume this is before the resurrection of the bodies, I think), he apparently can see and thirst and suffer. This shows us that suffering is not dependent on having the body. But when the lost do get their bodies, those bodies will also be suffering without end in addition to whatever spiritual and mental suffering they are in.

 

Okay, So the man in Luke 16 is alive and conscious then. Since he can see, and is thirsty and is suffering, he is alive and conscious.

But Paul says this idea is wrong.

Paul says no man will be alive and conscious again, after he dies, until the Coming of Jesus Christ Himself (1 Cor. 15: 22-23, kjv).


Paul says the dead have to be MADE ALIVE again; they don't STAY ALIVE as soon as they "die".

 

The man in Luke 16 is not alive; he is conscious. He is dead. But death does not bring the end of consciousness. Scriptures have already been posted on this thread and/or others to show this.

As I've already said, 1 Cor 15 is about the resurrection of the body.

 

Marcia,

I don't see how anyone can seperate consciousness from being alive.

The very idea that the dead are conscious is an oxymoron to me.

Is your main reason you think the dead are conscious is because the rich man in Luke 16 has his eyes open and can feel pain and is thirsty?

Does it occur to anyone that the story in Luke 16 shifts and jumps to the resurrection of this rich man, when he can once again open up his eyes, and that is how he can see and talk to Abraham -- who was born thousands of years before him ?

 

Most of us have been taught that if a man takes a blow to the head hard enough to knock him out, then he knows nothing.

However, if he is hit hard enough to kill him, then he knows everything! Strange. Does a dead man really know more than a living one?

Not according to David; "In that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalms 146:4).

What Happens At DEATH - link

 

As far as your OT quotes, Wopik, the OT should always be interpreted in light of the NT where it sheds more light on the same topics.

The fact that being dead and being conscious is an oxymoron to you does not make it true that being dead is being unconscious. Scripture teaches otherwise.

Luke 16 is not my main reason. I have many others which have been posted both here and in Eternal Fire and I think other threads. You just keep bringing up the same arguments which I or others have already answered. So I am seeing it as a waste of time to continue. We have shown that God clearly describes eternal torment and suffering in the Lake of Fire, and that Jesus teaches in Luke 16 there is consciousness after death, and
if those words of God and Jesus are not enough, then nothing is.

 

Marcia --

The rich man begs Abraham to send someone to his father's house, to warn his five brothers --". . . lest they also come into this place of torment" (verse 28).

Abraham then says, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them".


Amazing. Here, even in a New Testament parable of Jesus Christ, Christ characterizes Abraham as saying, in the future, to the rich man, that there is sufficient knowledge and information in the OLD TESTAMENT to understand the plan of salvation.

He strongly insists that anyone who will truly listen to "Moses and the prophets" can come into possession of saving knowledge.


Notice what the rich man then acknowledges. He says, ". . . No, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent" (verse 30).

The rich man now realizes that Abraham has been DEAD. He realizes he, the rich man, has also been dead for an indeterminate number of years. Suddenly, he is aware that he has been completely OBLIVIOUS to the passage of time; in his own mind, his brothers, living in his father's house, are still there.


In his vision of the Kingdom of God, he hears Abraham finally say, ". . . If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD". (verse 31).

Do you know what this final line of the parable obviously implies?


It implies the shocking TRUTH that this world will NOT take warning from, nor heed the invitation of, JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH.


For Jesus Christ of Nazareth DID, literally RISE FROM THE DEAD.

[ June 24, 2004, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

In his vision of the Kingdom of God, the rich man hears Abraham finally say, ". . . If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD". (Lk 16:31).

We are dealing with a RESURRECTION HERE.

The rich man has been RESURRECTED.

The rich man "lift up his EYES... and SEES Abraham. . ."
even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, "You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom, and you yourselves cast out".

That is the "great gulf" that exists between the rich man and Abraham.

 

The rich man is not resurrected. There is nothing here to indicate that. At the time Jesus tells this, he has not died and been resurrected. Jesus says the rich man is in Hades, a common term for the grave. Even if you want to see this as a future event with the rich man resurrected, then he has been been given his body and placed in a place of torment. There is torment for him before he gets his body, and torment afterwards. This passages only proves the point that the lost are in torment after death.

"Though one rose from the dead" is an ironic foreshadowing of Jesus' resurrection and how even then no one would believe who he was.

 

Marcia,

The parable also relates that at the time the Rich Man opens his eyes in Hades, Lazarus is already with Abraham. This is consistent with the fact presented in the book of Revelation that the first resurrection -- the resurrection of the righteous -- occurs many years before the second resurrection. Lazarus, evidently, was part of the first resurrection. The Rich Man was part of the second resurrection.

 

Marcia, I believe these three guys have been resurrected (in the parable).

Daniel speaks of the resurrection of the just, and of the unjust: "And many of them that sleep [their eyes closed] in the dust of the earth [their graves—buried—in hades] shall awake [lift up their eyes], some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2).


Peter said: "He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption" (Acts 2:31).

Jesus too died and was buried. And in "hell" - the grave - He too lifted up His eyes—when He was resurrected!

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Jesus did not say when this rich man, "in hell," (the grave)lifted up his eyes. Jesus pictured him as one of the wicked, or lost. We must look to other scriptures to tell us when the unjust will lift up their eyes in their graves.


In Revelation 20:4 we read of the resurrection of those in Christ at His coming. But Revelation 20:5 says: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." So the resurrection of the rich man and all the unjust or unsaved will take place after the Millennium! It is pictured and described in Revelation 20:11-12.


While Jesus in speaking about the rich man and Lazarus did not say when the rich man will open his eyes and be resurrected out of his grave, other scriptures do reveal that it will be after the Millennium.

 

And why is this? The bible teaches this truth. Or is it just because it doesn't fit in with your warped theology?

"...in the future..."? OK, I give. Where does Jesus say that? He doesn't. Jesus said:
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. (Luke 16:22-13, ESV)
Sorry, nothing about the future.

And who said anything about the plan of salvation? Remember what Jesus said in John 5:39:
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
Moses and the prophets all pointed to the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Again, nothing about the passage of time. Do not read anything into the bible that is not there. Especially to try to back up hair-brained ideas.

"...though one rose from the dead" has diddly to do with the rich man, or Abraham, or Lazarus. Surely you can see that? If one cannot look to the oT and not see that Jesus Christ is the culmination of all that was written, then how can anyone expect them to believe that Jesus Christ is who He said He is?

No, your monologue is consistant with someone who wants to twist the Scriptures to make his point. Nowhere is the resurrection spoken of. The rich man is in hell (Hades), and Lazarus is with Abraham (Paradise), period. The dead in Christ will be resurrected when Jesus returns for the church. The tribulation saints will be resurrected when Jesus erturns to defeat the Antichist. The lost will not be resurrected until after the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and the destruction/dissolution of the earth and the heavens (Rev. 20:11-15).

So, exactly who taught you these things? I am very interested to know.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

"the dead know nothing" - eccl 9:5-6

"their thoughts perish" - psalms 146:4

The dead are ASLEEP [eyes closed] in the dust of the earth; some will AWAKE [eyes opened] to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt -- Daniel 12:2.

Life, everlasting life, is something, then, that these dead people were not experiencing when they were dead; they were not alive and conscious, as you imply the dead are; they had their eyes closed; they were ASLEEP -- THEY WERE DEAD -- GRAVEYARD DEAD !


Paul also explains that those who are "alseep in Christ" -- DEAD in Christ -- shall rise first, at Christ's Coming (1 Thess. 4: 13-17).

 

Gee, Wopik, are you always this literal, even when the context shows you otherwise?

I would venture that you stand amazed when someone speaks of "dying" the night before, but there they stand before you. Whoa! Must be evidence of a resurrection, or at least a miraculous healing!!!

You need to go crawl back into your SDA doctrines, because they definately are not Baptist.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

What about all these people who never had a chance to be saved? Why are they going to be roasted in hell for all eternity, because you didn’t send a missionary to them?

 

Yes, they will "be roasted in hell for all eternity", but only for not accepting by faith the finished work of Jesus Christ.

No one else is held guilty for your decision to accept or reject Jesus.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
(Rom 1:18-20 ESV)

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
(Psa 19:1 ESV)

Man has no excuse for not accepting Jesus Christ, as even the very creation testitifies of Him.

I will admit that, as a new Christian, I had a hard time with this. Many times I pondered it, and many times I called out to God, asking, "Why? Why would You condemn those who never even heard Your name? I thought You were just! I thought You were righteous! Why?"

God showed me a passage in Isaiah:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Isa 55:8-9 ESV)

You see, the fact that it didn't make sense to my young, finite mind didn't matter. God had already ordained, and He had His reasons. Now, I understand the 'why' of it: God declared that the only way to Him was through Jesus, and any who do not come through Jesus Christ are cast out into ouer darkness (hell, and eventually, the lake of fire). There is no excuse that will stand before God and the great white throne judgement. Only those who accepted Jesus Christ through faith in this life will be accepted. All others will not.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

No one goes to hell because they did not hear about Jesus. They go because they have hardened their hearts against the truth. If they reject the true Creator God, they will likely not want to know about Jesus. God knows every man's heart. God is just and righteous, so it is impossible for someone to go to hell unjustly. Only if you believe God is not just can you think that someone might be in hell unjustly. At the same time, we are to take the Good News out into the world because we have no idea who needs to hear it and will trust Christ.

 

Yes, but What about all these people who never had a chance to be saved?

 

Doesn't matter. They still have the same fate as those who rejected Christ.

If you don't like that, or if you want to argue it, take it up with God. It is His rule, not mine.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

"And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, 'Trouble not yourselves; for his life [psuche] is in him' " (Acts 20:10).

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God made man of two ingredients, dust material from ground, and breath of God. That's it.

Body + Breath of God = Living soul

Body - Breath of God(life) = Dead soul