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Eternal Fire

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by wopik, May 31, 2004.

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  1. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Jesus does not appear to say that there is a finite end to these sufferings, however humane that might be. In fact he says "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... (Matt 25:41)

    JUDE 7 -- The two cities of Sodom and Gomorrha "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

    Are these cities still burning and yet not being consumed?

    The eternal fires that burned S&G to the ground burned out millenieum ago.

    "Eternal fire" means a fire whose results are permanent or everlasting. Sodom and Gomorrah have never been rebuilt!

    The fires which burned S&G went out themselves. Clearly there is no question as to the plain meaning of God's Word. All who will insist on rebelling against Him unrepentantly will be burned to a crisp in a very real hell fire!
     
    #1 wopik, May 31, 2004
  2. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Speak clearly and not in riddles please. Are you advocating annihilationism? If so, I will have to call you out for trying to pass another gospel for the real thing.
     
    #2 Daniel David, May 31, 2004
  3. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    The tares - the weeds - are burned in the fire (Matt 13:40).

    These tares practice iniquity (Greek,anomia) lawlessness (verse 41). The enemy that sowed them is the devil (Matt 13:39).


    The opposite of the "tares" are the righteous. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:43).

    Jesus Christ the righteous (1 Jn 2:1)
     
    #3 wopik, May 31, 2004
  4. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    we have opposing viewpoints.. is the environment called "hell" and those who occupy it,.. eternal or finite?

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    rev 20:13 seems to point towards a finite timespan of existence of those souls within its environment with an enevitable conclusion of judgement towards their works..
     
    #4 Me2, May 31, 2004
  5. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    double post
     
    #5 Me2, May 31, 2004
  6. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Me2 --

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    The word "hell" in this verse is "hades" - the grave - not the burning hell of "gehenna fire".

    I have a center margin in my kjv Bible; it also says "the grave" for the word "hell" in Rev 20:13.

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/
     
    #6 wopik, May 31, 2004
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    wopik, can you answer my question.
     
    #7 Daniel David, May 31, 2004
  8. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Daniel David ---

    Are you advocating annihilationism? If so, I will have to call you out for trying to pass another gospel for the real thing.


    I believe what the Bible says: The wicked and unrepentant people will be burned up and turned into ashes (Malachi 4). They will cease to exist.
     
    #8 wopik, May 31, 2004
  9. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Where the fire is never quenched, and the worm dieth not." Pretty plain to me.

    The Scriptures give us the picture of those who do not accept Christ during their life as being placed in hell, a place of fire and torment. Revelation tells us that at the great white throne judgement, all those who were unsaved (including those in hell) will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

    If you look at Rev. 20:10, you see that the devil has already been cast into the lake, along with the beast and his prophet. These will be tormented day and night forever and ever. If the beast and his prophet, mortal men, will not be incinerated and burned up, why would we conclude that any others (who have already been burning for an untold amount of time in hell itself) would be spared from eternal damnation?

    God is a loving God, but He is also a righteous God. Sin must be dealt with. Those who reject Jesus Christ's offer of paying for their sins accept the alternative, which is hell and the lake of fire.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #9 Trotter, May 31, 2004
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    wopik, thank you for that. Now, what you are advocating is NOT what the Bible teaches. You are (hopefully) unwittingly advocating another gospel.

    People need to repent and embrace the gospel or face the wrath of God. You have it so that they can escape his wrath another way. You are offering another way for people to get out of eternal suffering.

    Btw, the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorrah are still burning.
     
    #10 Daniel David, May 31, 2004
  11. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Trotter ---

    Where the fire is never quenched,

    "And if your right hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched! (Mark 9: 43 / Matt 18: 8-9).

    Does that mean burning forever, and never burning up?

    Try this test: Put a piece of paper in a pan. Light the paper with a match.

    Now, don't quench that fire!

    Don't put it out -- for that's what "quench" means. Very soon the paper will burn up. Then put it down on the floor and step on it!

    Now it is merely ashes under the soles of your feet -- precisely as our Bible plainly says the wicked shall be! (Malachi 4 / Matt 3:12).

    In Jeremiah 17: 27, God warned the Jews that Jerusalem would be burned, and the fire would not be quenched -- unless they repented. In Jeremiah 52: 13, we read the account of the burning of Jerusalem. That fire was not quenched! I is not still burning! It just burned itself out.


    and the worm dieth not." Pretty plain to me.


    Isaiah 66:24

    There was a city dump where refuse was burned, where the carcass of a dead animal would be thrown and burned, as would the body of an evil man. Burial was something reserved for honorable men.

    The wicked man was killed, stoned and he was taken out to the dump and his body was burned.

    The image here is not of people burning forever in hell, but of their dead carcass on the city dump, where the fire never goes out and where worms don’t die, but feed plentifully, and turn into FLIES.
     
    #11 wopik, May 31, 2004
  12. TWade

    TWade New Member

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    wopik claims in his profile to be Baptist, yet at least two of his doctrines are the teachings of JW's. Russellite.
     
    #12 TWade, May 31, 2004
  13. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Daniel David --

    It is always called "eternal punishment" NOT "eternal punish-ing".

    Death by fire is for all eternity; it is eternal punish-ment

    JUDE 7 is talking about the two cities of S&G which are "set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire".

    Are these cities still burning and yet not being consumed?

    Of course not!


    "Eternal fire" means a fire whose results are permanent or everlasting.
     
    #13 wopik, May 31, 2004
  14. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    TWade ---

    The BIBLE says the wicked will be ashes:

    "For behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS.........but unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings.....and you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says THE LORD OF HOSTS"

    Let us hope our preachers are preaching what the LORD OF HOSTS says.

    [ May 31, 2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]
     
    #14 wopik, May 31, 2004
  15. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    TWade --

    do us Baptists or Methodists or Catholics teach that the wicked "shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up" ?? (Malachi 4:1)

    THE BIBLE DOES !


    Do us Baptists or Methodists or Catholics teach that the wicked "shall be ashes under the soles of your feet...." ?? (Malcahi 4:3)

    THE BIBLE DOES !
     
    #15 wopik, May 31, 2004
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Unrepetant sin (that is, no forgiveness through believing in Christ) against an eternal God merits eternal conscious punishment. The Bible speaks of a conscious torment as in Jesus's story of the rich man in Luke 16.

    The article below refutes the arguments of annihilationism, which is what you are advocating.
    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT HELL
    Excerpts from above article:
    Wopik, the English word "hell" sometimes refers to grave in the Bible (Hades) and sometimes to the place of eternal punishment. It depends on the context. The word "Gehenna" is also used. The "lake of fire" is, I think, more accurate and less confusing.

    TWade said:
    On another thread, someone posted that they recognized in wopik's beliefs the heretical teachings of the late Herbert W. Armstrong. I am amazed that someone can espouse these kinds of beliefs, yet because they put "Baptist" in their profile, they are allowed to start threads here, especially when they introduce and defend unbiblical views.

    TO MODERATORS:
    How does annihilationism fit under "Baptist Theology and Bible study??"
     
    #16 Marcia, May 31, 2004
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Trotter --

    If you look at Rev. 20:10, you see that the devil has already been cast into the lake, along with the beast and his prophet. These will be tormented day and night forever and ever. If the beast and his prophet, mortal men, will not be incinerated and burned up, why would we conclude that any others (who have already been burning for an untold amount of time in hell itself) would be spared from eternal damnation?


    Let the Bible interpret the Bible.

    "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).

    In our KJV Bibles, you will notice that the word "are" is in italics. This means the word was supplied by the translators and is not in the original Greek. This is the mistranslation that misleads, indicating that the beast and the false prophet are still in the lake of fire at the time the devil and his demons are cast into this lake.

    According to the chronology of Revelation itself, both the beast and false prophet were cast alive into the lake of fire at the beginning of God's thousand-year reign on the Earth (Rev 19:20).

    By merely using God's definition of what happens to human bodies when they are cast into fire, we can realize that they will be burned up just like so much fat on a hot stove (Psalm 37:20), and therefore, the phrase in Revelation 20:10 should be translated "where the beast and the false prophet were".

    The devil will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone at the end of Jesus' one thousand year reign (Rev 20:7-10).
     
    #17 wopik, May 31, 2004
  18. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Marcia --

    you are correct about the use of the word "Hell"

    1) greek &gt; hades &gt; hell
    2) greek &gt; gehenna &gt; hell
    3) greek &gt; tartaroo &gt; hell

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/


    ==========================================

    Hell is eternal (aivw,nioj, aionios). Hell is a place of “eternal punishment” (Matt 25:46; cf. Dan 12:1-2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thes 1:9) with “eternal fire” (Matt 18:8; 25:41).

    of course hell is eternal; DEATH is forever.

    Death is eternal punish-ment, not punish-ing.

    Death is eternal destruction.

    ----------------------

    Jesus did not offer us eternal life in hell or eternal life in heaven.

    Mankind's choices are DEATH or LIFE.

    "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal LIFE....." (Romans 6:23).
     
    #18 wopik, May 31, 2004
  19. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Punishment means nothing if you are conscious. You cannot suffer punishment if you are not conscious of it.

    You said that we all suffer two deaths, but God says
    So when God says that death is suffered by those who reject Christ, it is the second death, eternal suffering and separation from God.

     
    #19 Marcia, May 31, 2004
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    As for using the term "destruction" to mean annihilation:
    When you take away what God's word teaches and offer annihilationsim in its place, you take away from God's wrath on sin.
     
    #20 Marcia, May 31, 2004
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