Eternal Fire

I just posted examples from the Bible that show that death in the NT often means eternal separation from God.

Also, as far as your latest post, I also posted info that shows that destruction in the Bible when it speaks of separation from God does not mean the end of consciousness. Did you read those links I posted? I suggest it.

There is no evidence that death in these cases means the end of consciousness. In fact, Luke 16 and the other passages discussed in the articles I posted show the opposite.

 

Man lives forever. Where is another matter.

Every single person who has ever lived will be resurrected, and everyone will be resurrected into their eternal bodies.

Those who have chosen Christ will be with Him throughout eternity. Those who have rejected Him will be cast into the lake of fire, eternaly seperated from God.

I understand how you have come to the conclusions that you have. But what you are failing to take into consideration is the fact the nothing that happens after this life has to obey the rules of nature as we know them.

We know that all living things must die. But in heaven there will be no death.

We know that every persons experiences pain. But in heaven there will be no pain.

We know that light creates shadow and darkness. But in heaven there will be no darkness.

So, pray tell, why does God have to follow your rules of logic?

Man's logic tells us that God did not create the universe, but that it gradually formed over countless millinia.

Man's logic tells us that dead people do not get back up and live.

Man's logic tells us that this life is all we have.

God's will is entirely different from the logic of man.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

wopik, you fail to answer my charge that you are offering salvation apart from Christ.

The resurrected bodies of unbelievers will be able to continually burn forever.

 

Marcia wrote...

yet because they put "Baptist" in their profile, they are allowed to start threads here, especially when they introduce and defend unbiblical views.
TO MODERATORS:
How does annihilationism fit under "Baptist Theology and Bible study??"

Marcia, Wopik is, I'm sure, a follower of Armstrong doctrine. But I think you take the wrong approach. I think Wopik's view is unbiblical, too, but instead of whistling for the moderators, how about dealing with the evidence he/she brought out? If the moderators were to run him/her off, would you be happy? If that happened, Wopik would leave convinced that Baptist couldn't or wouldn't deal with scripture and that he/she was right. I wouldn't want that, would you?

Wopik,take a look at this...

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment : but the righteous into life eternal .

You've made an attempt to explain this like this...

Daniel David --

It is always called "eternal punishment" NOT "eternal punish-ing".

Death by fire is for all eternity; it is eternal punish-ment

Go back and look at Jesus' words in Matt. 25:46. Look them up in a Strong's. The word Christ uses for "punishment" is Strong's 2851.

chittiyth; from 2865, fear:- terror.

Everlasting fear and terror. You make another mistake with this passage. Do you see the terms "
everlasting punishment" and "life eternal"? Did you know that "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same word?

166 - Greek
166 aionios ahee-o'-nee-os
from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown says...

but the righteous into life eternal--that is, "life everlasting." The word in both clauses, being in the original the same, should have been the same in the translation also.


Christ was contrasting two opposites. Everlasting terror as opposed to everlasting life. If the terror is temporary, then so is the life. Same term.

Look at this...

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Look at the words "tormented", and "torment". Look...

928 - Greek
928 basanizo bas-an-id'-zo
from 931; to torture:--pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

929 - Greek
929 basanismos bas-an-is-mos'
from 928; torture:--torment.

Now, Wopik, instead of giving me hyped up rhetoric as to your subjective opinion of the meaning of English words, open up your Strong's and tell me what you see.

Jim

 

Marcia wrote:

This board has no proof that any of us are Baptist, for that matter, except those in the board who know each other. We register as Baptists, and the Board accepts our declaration, based on honesty and a clear conscience.

Our beliefs do not mark us Baptist at all. Remember, there are paedo-baptists, as well, and there are seventh-day baptists.

 

Let me ask this. What exactly do you believe happens at the judgement of the lost. Spell it out clearly if you will.

 

JimW wrote:

I guess I was just thinking this should be in the Other Religions/Doctrines forum where things like this are being debated (like the Trinity, Freemasonry, etc.).

I do think it's good for Baptists and all Christians to know how to defend Biblical doctrine and I have no desire to run Wopik off, but we have been presenting the Biblical evidence against annihilationsm and seemingly got nowhere.

I appreciate all that has been posted in defense of the Bible.

 

Wopik wrote:

Exactly! And where does it say that this death is the end of consciousness? In fact, the verses we've been posting for you show it is not the end of consciousness, just as when we physically die there is no end of consciousness.

The Bible often uses the term "sleep" to mean being dead, but other passages (like Luke 16) show that death is not the end of consciousness.
Our physical death (the first death) is not the end of consciousness; neither is the second death.

 

Wopik,

The Bible teaches us, if any person reject Christ, will suffering eternal punishment, no person will be rest from everlasting torment in the fire. Luke chapter 16 is a perfect picture of everlasting torment, where the rich man is suffering in there right now. There is no "sleep" after the death. Of course, the body is 'sleep'. But the soul never, never sleep, soul remain live forever in either heaven or hell after the death.

Rev. 14:9-11 warn, if any person worship the beast or receive the mark of the beast, will suffer in the fire with brimstone, no person shall rest from the tornment forever and ever..... They will remain suffering with great tornment in there without stop and rest for forever and ever. That is what the Bible teaching us. Believe what the Bible saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

wopik,

me thinks you speak ahead of your thoughts....

the reason that death no longer has a sting is that its power and purpose is abolished.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

it is appointed that all men be delivered into "spiritual death" via Gods law and stand before judgement.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


today christians are not disallowed from being placed in spiritual death.
it is their fate, yet they are delivered there with the hope of resurrection by their savior.
yes christians do enter into spiritual death. yet they go their WITH their CHRIST.
(as all others will.)

spiritual death is all mens destination. today, not all are being called. they are not being prepared by Gods law to enter into spiritual death.

Gods law is the vehicle that delivers all souls there.
it is where we lose our self willed carnal spirit and gain anothers spirit authority over our souls..

the reason deaths power is mentioned being abolished is because Jesus Christ must cover over all sin and rescue all souls from deaths power.

to prove that he is indeed Lord over all enemies.

especially the enemy called satan with death and sin and hell as his power

if even one soul is left in death or in hell. then satan has proven that he has a greater power than Jesus Christ. that sin is greater than mercy.

and this is not the nature of God, wopik.

this would appear a failed plan of God.

all souls must be delivered from death or this whole plan of God is a failure.

and Jesus Christ can not be declared Lord.

next, you call the consequences of the GWT judgement as annihilation. as being burned in the lake of Fire. yes the lake is called the second death.
the death, or "abolishment" of death. but it is symbolism. as paralleled by the refiners fire of the holy spirit towards christians. the fire is the same. the methodology of God is the same. as christians today learn of the holy spirit. the knowledge of Good and evil. the trials and tribulations necessary to learn within. the lake of fire is a symbol of sacrifice and renewing of the mind.

(as was the laver of water and the brazen alter in the OT.)

just what does happen when you combine the knowledge of Good and the knowledge of evil together. sounds as though you might have a bit of turmoil until the understanding staightens everything in its proper place.
as understanding loving your enemies would. theirs a lot of fear and pride in the carnal man that must be overcome and understood that its is right to forgive your enemy rather than administer retrobution.
again the addition of mercy and justice can bring about temporary disturbances when they are not initially understood as existing together.

eternal fire of torment, eternal punishment, eternal retrobution.
this is not the nature of God. this is a learning experience of man as he grows up understanding the combination of good and evil.
Im positive that all mankind contains experiences of the knowledge of Good and evil. the lake of fire is the age where everything is sorted out and understood. where mankind becomes "all in all" with itself, its lord and its God. thateres a lot of explaining and learning that must take place.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

this age is for the collection and training of the sons of God..the elect. the teachers of the next age to come. the leaders and representatives of Christ "in" the lake of fire.
must we repeat ourselves of who we are..

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

that requires the sons of Levi to actually be "IN THE REFINERS FIRE".

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

His ministers a flame of fire!. thats todays christians.

heaven is as a burning oven. it is a spiritul abode where everyone will be purged of the works of sin and unrighteousness.

 

Wopik,

I would like you to read a good article about the reality of hell - http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

The Bible teaches us very clear, no unbeliever shall rest or sleep at the death. Immediately right after their death, they will wake up being in tornment same time. It is eternality punishment. Most baptists in this baptistboard believe it is a reality hell because of what the Bible telling us so.


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Wopik,

I understand what in your mind of hell speaks of grave where the people are buried. But, actually, the Bible teaches us, there is a literal place where all unbelievers are tormenting immediately right after they died. Thier bodies are 'sleep', but, their souls never sleep, their souls are stay live eternality in either places - hell or heaven.

Hell is as temporary place. But the lake of fire is the future final state where all unbelievers shall be cast into that place is the eternality punishment, they shall not rest in the lake of fire forever and ever.

By the way, do you believe the rich man of Luke chapter 16, actually saw Abraham with Lazarcus while he tornment in the fire?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Right, I posted something about Gehenna and Hades.

Yes, he is in Hades but he is in torment. Hell, as most Christians understand as the permanent place for unbelievers, is the lake of fire which is created in Revelation. However, even before that time, unbelievers are in torment - - there is no rest for the wicked (as it says somewhere -- I think in Psalms).

There are different views on this. Sometimes Gehenna and Hades are interchangeable, sometimes not (as when Hades is just the grave). But here Jesus is teaching that this man is in conscious torment.

When the dead unbelievers face the Christ's judgement, they will be sent to the lake of fire, to "everlasting" punishment and torment.

The rich man was not asleep. Lifting up his eyes does not mean he woke up, but he looked up and saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. There is nothing in the passage to indicate he was asleep at any point. The dead do not sleep.

The doctrine of hell is one the first things I rejected in high school before I set out on my spiritual journey into Eastern and New Age religions. And it was the last doctrine for me to fully face after I became a believer. I believed it the second I was saved, but it took a few years for me to be willing to talk about it. I would have loved to have found any evidence in the Bible for no hell or no conscious torment (and I've had several try to convince me of that), but the Bible is clear. And since I believe in a just God, I know that all His ways are just and I trust His judgment and decisions.

 

Jesus did not go to a place of torment, he was in paradise. Remember, he said to the thief, "This day you will be with me in Paradise." And when he died on the cross, he commended his soul to God the Father.

The rich man, an unbeliever, went to a place of torment and Jesus went to paradise.

When the phrase that Jesus went to hell was added to one of the creeds, the meaning was that he went to the grave -- that is he died -- not that he went to a place of torment.