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Eternal Fire

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by wopik, May 31, 2004.

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  1. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    no one gets burned up because the fire is eternal, and the fire will not die it (get quenched) because there is no end of fuel for it. Hence, unquenchable. Not able to be quenched.

    ".....but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).

    For me, "burned up" is annihilation. If others
    don't see it that way, well.........


    For me, "becoming ashes" (in Malachi) is annihilation. If others don't see it that way, well.........

    ==============================================

    DeafPosttrib --

    These verse speak of any person who sinned, person have spiritually death - punishment.

    Jesus offers us life or death (Rom 6:23), not life or life. Jesus died in our place. He didn't die a "spiritual death". Jesus died a physical death in our place. The unrepentant sinners will die in "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41).

    "And these shall go into everlasting punish-MENT......" (Matt 25:46). Executing someone is everlasting punish-MENT. Ask Timothy McVey.
     
    #61 wopik, Jun 5, 2004
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    It's not burning up in the sense of annihilation if the fire is unquenchable. Saying the fire is unquenchable tells us what is meant by "burn up" (which can also just mean "burning"). You are putting too much emphasis on the idea that "burn up" means to burn so that there is an end. God clearly says there is no end, here and elsewhere.

    We always compare scripture to scripture, and when you look at the totality of passages on punishment for unbelievers after death, you find that it not annihilation. That is why the historic Christian faith for 2,000 years has held to eternal punishment for unbelievers.
     
    #62 Marcia, Jun 5, 2004
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Yes, executing someone is everlasting punishment (if they don't go to be with Christ) because they are still conscious after death; they are just not on earth. You are only making a case for eternal punishment here, not against it.

    I don't know why you hyphenate punishment.

    Just as executing someone does not annihilate a person, so does eternal punishment from God not annihilate someone.
     
    #63 Marcia, Jun 5, 2004
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Yes, executing someone is everlasting punishment (if they don't go to be with Christ) because they are still conscious after death

    that's Twilight Zone talk !

    bye! nice talking to you all.
     
    #64 wopik, Jun 5, 2004
  5. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    I didn't know Jesus was Rod Serling in Luke 16.
     
    #65 Alcott, Jun 5, 2004
  6. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Yes, executing someone is everlasting punishment (if they don't go to be with Christ) because they are still conscious after death

    The Dead are NOT conscious, according to the Bible. The Bible says when the dead are dead, they are graveyard dead till the resurrection.

    "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten" (Eccl. 9:5, kjv).

    "For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again" (Eccl. 3:19-20).

    "If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. You shall call, and I will answer you....." (Job 14:14).



    Let's please listen to the God of creation, NOT Plato --

    Paul was willing to remain alive for the sake of the Philippians who needed him as a teacher and apostle, even though he sometimes desired personally to be delivered from troubles - by death - to await the resurrection and be with Christ. To die is gain! In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION!
     
    #66 wopik, Jun 6, 2004
  7. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    KenH ----

    Excellent reference --

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/012/1.30.html

    EXCERPT:

    5. Sulfur, smoke, and the "second death."

    The meaning of Revelation 14:10–11 is contested: the wicked will be "tormented with burning sulfur" and "the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night" for them. Traditionalists assert that this text unambiguously teaches their view.

    Conditionalists appeal to Old Testament texts that describe God's destruction of cities, "all of which are reduced to wastes of burning sulfur, but which themselves cease to exist as cities once they have been razed to the ground." The rising smoke in Revelation 14:10 is a trace of the destruction wrought by the consuming fire. And the torment relates to the moment of their destruction rather than eternal suffering.

    But, traditionalists protest, the text speaks of "the smoke of their torment" going up "for ever and ever" and thereby connects the suffering of persons with eternal duration. Traditionalists also point to the sentence that follows—"There is no rest day or night" for the wicked—as evidence of eternal punishment. Conditionalists counter that this does not prove endless suffering but only suffering that lasts as long as the sufferers do.
     
    #67 wopik, Jun 6, 2004
  8. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Wopik, you evidently believe in soul sleep as does the SDA and the Watchtower. This Eccl. verse is always quoted by those who advocate soul sleep but it is not saying there is no awareness after death. The Eccl. verse, in context, is saying that the dead are no longer aware of what is on earth -- when you are dead, you are out of here! Verse 9, speaking of the dead, says:

    In other words, those things (apparently negative things is the context) that one has on earth -- hate and envy -- are gone once you dead (no longer under the sun). The context of the whole book is that things man clings to on earth are worthless if one is not following God and one will lose those things once dead. Life is temporal. As one commentator says on this verse:
    The rich man and the beggar are conscious in Luke 16; Elijah and Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (apparently they were not sleeping somewhere); Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with Jesus that day; and Paul said absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. The body sleeps after death until resurrection, but there is no unconsciousness. Also, any OT verses need to be interpreted in light of the NT -- and when that is done, it is even more clear the OT verses are not talking about unconsciousness after death.

    So we've gone from eternal fire to soul sleep?
     
    #68 Marcia, Jun 6, 2004
  9. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    sleep in the bible just means death.

    Check out kings and chronicles -- all those kings slept [died] with their fathers.

    I have no idea what people mean by soul sleep.
     
    #69 wopik, Jun 7, 2004
  10. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Elijah and Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (apparently they were not sleeping somewhere);

    the transfiguration was merely a vision.

    Jesus said, "tell the vision to no man".


    Peter also had a vision - Acts 10:17 - "Peter doubted in himself what this VISION should mean".
     
    #70 wopik, Jun 7, 2004
  11. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Posted by Wopik:
    Yes, that meant they were dead. It does not indicate they were unconscious somewhere.

    Posted by Wopik:
    It may have been a vision but there is no reason to think it was not actually Elijah and Moses. In other words, I don't think it was a vision of them standing there and talking with Jesus while they were really somewhere else, unconscious. That would have been deceptive.

    Soul sleep is the belief that when people die, they go into an unconscious state until the resurrection. It is not part of the historic Christian faith nor is it biblical. Here is a good article on it:
    Soul Sleep
     
    #71 Marcia, Jun 7, 2004
  12. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Marcia --

    It does not indicate they were unconscious somewhere.

    what is your biblical evidence for this persistent concept of yours, that the dead are conscious ??
     
    #72 wopik, Jun 8, 2004
  13. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Hundreds of wagon trains moved through the Las Vegas Valley and camped by the springs. Thieves drove livestock through the valley in the 1840s and thousands of sheep and horses were driven across the Mojave Desert to California. The livestock quenched their thirst at the springs and fed on the surrounding meadow grasses.

    http://www.springspreserve.org/html/history_anglo_settlements.html
     
    #73 wopik, Jun 8, 2004
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Whew, this article on Eternal Fire is becoming eternal! [​IMG]

    Posted by Wopik:
    The evidence is listed in the article I posted a link to above. Did you read it?

    Reasons from the Bible are also given here in these 2 brief articles:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/116.html
    and
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/127.html

    The 2nd article explains it pretty well. I see no need to reinvent the wheel and don't have time right now. Hope you read them.

     
    #74 Marcia, Jun 8, 2004
  15. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Marcia,

    I did just now look at the links; they are good! --

    Summary

    After examining what the Bible says about the "intermediate," or "in between" state of the believer, we can conclude the following.

    1. Upon death, the soul or spirit of the believer goes immediately to be with God.

    I like to differentiate between the "soul" and "spirit".


    Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).


    Your second link says exactly what I hope I was saying:



    1) The Bible speaks of death as sleep.

    2) Hence death, like sleep, is a time of unconsciousness. Believers will see God's face when they awake from sleep, at the resurrection.

    3) The Soul Cannot Exist Apart From The Body; A person does not have a soul, they are a soul.

    4) we find Stephen asking Jesus to receive his spirit when his body fell asleep or died. Obviously Stephen expected to be conscious with Jesus.

    I agree with all of this, except "Obviously Stephen expected to be conscious with Jesus."

    I was never taught that the spirit was a conscious entity. I'll try to get more info. and get back to you later on that.

    Good articles, though!
     
    #75 wopik, Jun 8, 2004
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Wopik, you did not read the whole thing. The first part is where he is describing what the beliefs about soul sleep are. What you posted are the beliefs about soul sleep. Further down, you will see "Response to Soul Sleep" where he says more:

    There's more after this but I didn't want to post it all. Read the whole thing.
     
    #76 Marcia, Jun 8, 2004
  17. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    I do not know if you have went over this yet but at the Great White Throne Judgement many believe that Christians will not be there I am curious as to why. It states that whoever's name was not found in the Lambs book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire. So why even bother to mention the Lamb's Book of Life unless there were believers there as well who's name was found in it.

    On the Soul Sleep issue. I do not believe in Soul Sleep because it is written to be absent in death is to be present with Christ. I believe the Richman after he died lefted his eye in hell. I have a theory that when we died we are automaticly at the first resurection for Christians so not time has passed because when we died we drop outside of time to the first resurrection and are immeditly present with Christ. As far as those without Christ they drop out of time straight to Hell until the 2nd resurrection. I believe Abrham's Bossum and Hell we the same demesion but seprayed by a void hence the Rich man could see Lazerus. But after Christ died on the Cross I think those in Abrhams bossom went straight to Heaven.

    Now as far as we staying with Christ forever in Heaven. Rev ch 21 seems to say we will be back on a New Earth there will be no sun or moon no seas for Christ will be the Light.
     
    #77 Jacob Webber, Jun 9, 2004
  18. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    #78 Marcia, Jun 9, 2004
  19. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Marcia -- I did go to the end of the articles, but I must comment on at least one thing that the author said --

    this is my understanding of the ABOVE QUOTE:

    Why did Paul want to depart and be with Christ? "For I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.” ---Phillipians 1:23-24 NAS.

    Notice, Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.

    There is not one word mentioning heaven here, nor is there one word saying that he would be with Christ immediately. Then why the hurry for departure?

    To understand what is meant here, turn to another scripture where Paul was ready to depart. In 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul wrote: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

    In these verses Paul explains what he meant by being with Christ. He does not receive his reward immediately at death. But there is laid up a crown of righteousness which the Lord shall give him at that day. What day? At Christ's appearing----His second coming!


    In Isaiah 40:10 we notice this same day mentioned: "Behold, the Lord God will come….behold, his reward is with him…." See also Revelation 22: 12.

    Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" ---1 Thess. 4:16-17.

    This is when the dead "that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (Daniel 12: 2). The dead have not been with the Lord these thousands of years; but they are awaiting the time when they will in the future awaken from the dust of the earth to meet the Lord in the air!

    This is the time when, according to 1 Cor. 15: 52, the dead shall be raised incorruptible by the power of the Spirit of God. This is the first resurrection.

    Now Paul's statement in Philippians is clear. He was willing to remain alive for the sake of the Philippians who needed him as a teacher and apostle, even though he sometimes desired personally to be delivered from troubles - by death - to await the resurrection and be with Christ. To die is gain! In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION!
     
    #79 wopik, Jun 14, 2004
  20. Jim W

    Jim W New Member

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    Hey, Wopik.

    I made a mistake in the post on page 2. I wrote...

    Go back and look at Jesus' words in Matt. 25:46. Look them up in a Strong's. The word Christ uses for "punishment" is Strong's 2851.

    chittiyth; from 2865, fear:- terror.

    Everlasting fear and terror.

    You responded...

    For "punishment", I found this:

    punishment > Greek > Kolasis

    definition: correction, punishment, penalty

    You are correct. The word is kolasis. It took me a while to figure out where I'd made the mistake. It was after midnight when I posted the reply, and I thought it didn't sound right, but I figured it was because I was sleepy. Nope. It was because I looked up the Strong's number in the wrong dictionary. I was looking in the Hebrew dictionary; not the Greek.
    But I still want to ask you some questions about that word, as well as about some posts you've put up when I get time. I copied all your post so I'll have them if I don't get to it before this thread dies.

    Could you do me one little bitty favor? For cryin' out loud; could you lay off the exclamation {!} button?? It's gettin' a little overdone. Thanks.

    Jim
     
    #80 Jim W, Jun 14, 2004
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