Eternal Fire

Wopik, rewards are given at the judgement seat of Christ, but when a Christian dies, he is with Christ.

There is no purgatory, intermediate waiting room, etc. after death for the believer. The unbeliever is in sort of a waiting area for judgment but it is one of torment.

Christ's atonement on the cross was sufficient to cover all sins; therefore, he who believes in Christ and is saved will be with Christ after death without having to wait somewhere. Absent from the body=present with the Lord.

 

wopik,

Paul tells us, he rathers leave his own flesh, and be with the Lord now. do you think Paul is ignorant do not know where the Lord is? No, he knows where the Lord is. Paul knew that the Lord is in the heaven, he knew, once when he dies, he will be immediately be with the Lord.

My question of Luke chapter 16, HOW does Lazarus met Abraham immediate right his death? This is same apply to Paul's, that when we once die, we shall be immediately go to heaven to be with the Lord, our souls never sleep. Understand, it is mystery to us. We have to faith what the Bible saying. Trust in God. I know that I will see the Lord immediately right after I die.

You have to faith and trust what the Bible saying about our soul after the death.

Don't listen to Jehvoah Witness, or any cults teaching on soul sleep. Listen to the Bible, what it saying, because its have the truth.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

This is about the resurrection of the body.

As DeafPostTrib pointed out, Lazarus the beggar was in Abraham's bosom (a euphemism for God) after death, and the rich man was in torment in the grave, conscious.

 

Well, my friend Wopik. I've just been reading over your post's. A several things are striking to me about your understanding of this doctrine. Striking; but not new to me. It's easy for me to see the different disconnects in understanding because I've took the time to try to understand over the years. I also just got done reviewing Garner Ted's interview from several years back that he did with John Ankerburg.

I'm going to lay out the separate areas that cause the difference of opinion, and try to clear up the misunderstandings.
First, I want to look at a few passages that are the bed-rock of your understanding - the passages that you use to filter every other passage through. Let's see if you really understand those passages. The passages are...

Malachi 4:1-3
Psalms 146:4
Ecc. 3:20,21
Ecc. 9:5,6,10

First, I want to look at Malachi 4:1-3, but I want us to continue reading through verse 5. This will help us set the context of the passage.

(Mal 4:1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(Mal 4:2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(Mal 4:3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Mal 4:4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(Mal 4:5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

O.K., what day is being referred to here? Two places are referred to as "the day of the Lord" in scripture. One at the end of the Tribulation period, before the start of the Millennium, another after the Millennium before the establishment of the eternal Kingdom. In both cases Christ makes war on the wicked. Which one is referred to here? We can discover that from the context, as well as by other scriptures.

Look at Malachi 4:5 in Young's Literal Translation...

Mal 4:5 Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful.

Do you see the referrence to "the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful"? Look at this from Young's...

Joe 2:31 The sun is turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful.

Ah Ha! We have a parallel passage. Now we know what day is referred to, here. Let's see what else Joel has to say in this passage...

Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Now it's getting clearer and clearer, ain't it. Let's turn to the words of Christ Himself to nail down for sure the time frame being talked about. Look at Matt. 24:29-31...

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Look here...

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Wopik, Malachi chapter 4 is talking about the second coming at the end of the tribulation; NOT the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the Millennium. This can also be confirmed from verse 5 of Malachi 4...

(Mal 4:5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

"Elijah" will come before the day that is being referred to comes.

Do you see what a HUGE difference it makes? Now, all of a sudden, we see that Malachi 4 has nothing at all to do with the eternal state of anyone.

Next is Psalms 146:4...

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

On the surface it seems that you'd have to be right in your interpretation of this passage. That is, until one reads the whole Psalm; then the meaning becomes clear. It becomes even clearer once you check on the meaning of a word in the verse. Do you see "in that very day his thoughts perish."? It's "plans", not "thoughts".

Darby Bible...

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.

Contemporary English Version...

Psa 146:4 Once they die and are buried, that will be the end of all their plans.

Bible in Basic English...

Psa 146:4 Man's breath goes out, he is turned back again to dust; in that day all his purposes come to an end.

NKJV...

Psa. 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.

Now, let's look at the whole Psalm...

Psa 146:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
Psa 146:2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Psa 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:
Psa 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:
Psa 146:7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:
Psa 146:8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:
Psa 146:9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
Psa 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

Now, wasn't that easy, really? It's not difficult. The Psalmist is urging everyone to not rely on the PLANS of men - of PRINCES - when those plans will die when the prince does; but, rather, put your hope in God, because HE shall reign forever - unlike men. Psalm 146:4 is not talking about anyone's eternal condition, either. The parallel to this thought is found in 1Cor. 2:6...

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:


Now let's look at the Ecc. passages. Ecc. 3:20,21; And Ecc. 9:5,6,10....

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Then...

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Let's talk about the book of Ecclesiastes. It was written by Solomon. (Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.; Ecc 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. )

For a period of time in his life, Solomon strayed from God, multiplied wives to himself, allowed idols to be set up, and did not live righteously before God. Ecc. is written to bring one through his journey through "vanity" back to God. The book alternates between what he "said in my heart" and what he "said to myself", and the truth that he came to realize. Much of what he "said to himself", while he was in a depressed state is not true, and he corrects later in the book. It is a difficult book to follow and separate what he "said to himself" while in a depressed state - unregenerate man's outlook - and what is true wisdom. I'm curious as to how far you'd go in defending some other statements in the book. Let's look at a few of them....

Ecc 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Was he right? Does the earth abide forever?

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, we see that in his depression, Solomon was wrong. The earth does not abide forever. What about...

Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Was he right? Is it vanity to worship God in spirit and truth? Is it vexation of spirit to live godly?

What about....

Ecc 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

Was he right? No.

Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

God Himself will make that which is crooked straight.

What about...

Ecc 2:2 I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it?

Was he right? Is laughter madness? Not always.

Pro 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Pro 15:15 All the days of the afflicted are evil: but he that is of a merry heart hath a continual feast.

Do you want to read pure, unadulterated pessimism and despair? Read this...

Ecc 2:3 I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.
Ecc 2:4 I made me great works; I builded me houses; I planted me vineyards:
Ecc 2:5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:
Ecc 2:6 I made me pools of water, to water therewith the wood that bringeth forth trees:
Ecc 2:7 I got me servants and maidens, and had servants born in my house; also I had great possessions of great and small cattle above all that were in Jerusalem before me:
Ecc 2:8 I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts.
Ecc 2:9 So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me.
Ecc 2:10 And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour.
Ecc 2:11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.
Ecc 2:12 And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done.
Ecc 2:13 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.
Ecc 2:14 The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
Ecc 2:15 Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
Ecc 2:16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
Ecc 2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecc 2:18 Yea, I hated all my labour which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me.


Is this the attitude or beliefs of one in the will of God? Was his perceptions correct? No, they weren't. Through out the book, Solomon corrects some of his former misconceptions. In fact, in 3:21 he asked a question...

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

In his despair, he didn't know. But, later, he did. He answers his own question. Concerning man's death, he says...

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In his despair, he didn't know, but later he knew; man's spirit goes to God at death.

In Garner Ted's debate with John Ankerburg, Ankerburg tries to point out this verse and Garner Ted interrupts him. Garner Ted says,...

" No, it says "who knoweth whether", I brought that up myself earlier, if you recall; about the spirit in man - "who knoweth whether" the spirit of the beast goeth to the ground or the spirit of man goeth back to God that gave it. I don't know whether it does; I think it stays right there near the body but is totally unconscious, I don't know..."

Garner Ted didn't even realize that Solomon provided the answer to his question in the final chapter. Another interesting point Garner Ted brings up is concerning how he arrived at his beliefs on the subject. He says that he derives his understanding from two sources; "PRIMARILY scientific and clinical, SECONDARILY Biblical". I find that statement incredibly strange. Whatever could science or a clinic possibly have to say in regards to the spirit or soul of man?

I'm going to post this for now, there's a lot more I need to cover but I don't have time right now. I'll return with the rest when I can...

Jim

 

I just posted the opposite view on the other thread on this topic. Sin against an eternal God (and especially since it's against One who gives us the chance of mercy and His grace) demands eternal consequences. It is rather disproportionate the other way.

God is the measure of justice, not man.

 

All sin is an afront to God. God is immeasurably holy, so much so that He cannot even look upon sin. Just how would eternal punishment seem unjust for the sins committed against a most holy God?

My sister died in 1997, at the age of 26. She had just graduated Auburn University the week before with her PhD in Psychology. She was extremely intelligent, and very witty. She was liked and loved by all the faculty, and all of her stucents (she was a professor while attending). She died not knowing Jesus Christ as her personal Savior.

Where is she? In hell, awaiting final judgement and being cast into the lake of fire to burn for eternity.

Is this fair? Yes, it is. She lived her life outside of God. She had no use for church, for salvation. She lived in open defiance of the holiness of God, and the eternal cost of doing so.

Do I blame God? I did at first. But I have come to understand that He did nothing wrong. She had her life, and she had opportunity. I witnessed to her. Others witnessed to her. She had attanded church on occasion. She knew that she was not right with God, but chose to ignore it. Thus, she now has what she asked for.

How long would one have to suffer to pay for the sins that they have committed? The RCC might be able to tell you (snicker, snicker). God's holiness demands that all sin be punished. As Marcia said, sin against an eternal God demands eternal punishment.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Jim W

Don't post all that scripture; it's too much **** work. And it's too much for people to read. I appreciate it, but it's too much work.

No, Wopik, it's not too much work. You posted...

do us Baptists or Methodists or Catholics teach that the wicked "shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up" ?? (Malachi 4:1)
THE BIBLE DOES !
Do us Baptists or Methodists or Catholics teach that the wicked "shall be ashes under the soles of your feet...." ?? (Malcahi 4:3)
THE BIBLE DOES !

You just came on a Baptist forum and lectured us that our beliefs were not biblical. And you made some claims about some specific scriptures. I went back and addressed those claims. And I backed up my assessment with scripture; and I placed your scriptures in context, where they belong.
I can see from your reply here, and your attitude on the "tares of the field" thread that you really are not interested in doing any hard, in depth Bible study; you've got a narrow path beat down through some verses and you're not interested in reading anything that might make you uncomfortable.

But, no, it's not too much scripture to read - if you're concerned with the truth.

Jim

 

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You're absolutely right. The problem is; who should I take my definition of "death" from? You? Or the Bible? Because the way the Bible defines "death" and the way you do is two different things.

Jim