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Eternal Fire

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by wopik, May 31, 2004.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Isn't the definition of eternal life "life with God" and the opposite of that "life without God"?

    If as a Christian you've felt the withdrawing of the Holy Spirit you can understand the torment of those days you spent in fear and tears wanting to get things right again.

    The way it sounds to me is that heaven is never being separated from God and the security of that, and hell is never having his presence and knowing it.

    I am not saying this is a doctrine which I believe right now, I am saying this sounds like a credible belief and one that I'm not willing as of now to toss. Most everything in the bible seems to be a literal picture given to describe a spiritual situation, or we'd have to believe God is a lion, there's a giant wheel up in the sky, Jesus wanted us to eat him, we must be physically born two times for salvation, and there are only seven churches.
    Gina
     
  2. Jim W

    Jim W New Member

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    "Wherefore I preceive there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?" (Eccl. 3:22).

    You still didn't read my post, did you Wopik? Was Solomon right in his pessimistic outlook? Do you think that is your portion? To just rejoice in your work? And there's nothing better coming? If you do, what are you wasting your time on a religious forum for? Go fishing, read a book, take a nap or something. Time's running out and you've got nothing better coming.

    The Bible says THE DEAD know not anything (Eccl. 9:5) -- that's a state of un-consciousness.

    Solomon also said in his depression that he didn't know whether the spirit of man went to God or not, he said that the earth abides forever, he also said to enjoy the wife of your youth, eat and drink - because that's all there is. He was wrong. And he corrects some of his mistakes that he made while he was straying from God in other sections of the book.

    Go back and read my post on the previous page. I've copied off and studied all your post on this thread. And - trust me - all of 'em together are 5 times as long as those couple of chapters I posted earlier. I know it'll be hard for you, but if you'll make you a sandwich and get a glass of milk, I'm sure you can struggle through it. [​IMG]

    How do you see DEATH differently, in the Bible ?

    I turn to the New Testament and study what God in the flesh - Christ Himself - had to say on the subject of the spirit of man. And here's some of what I see...

    Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
    Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


    Was this just "poetic language" or something? Maybe Jesus was just making a crude joke? How can the dead bury their dead?

    The spiritually dead can bury the physically dead.

    Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was DEAD, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    What does he mean; DEAD? Was he unconscious? Buried? No. He was separated from his father.

    1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

    Someone being dead and alive at the same time? BALDERDASH. Right, Wopik?

    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, ( made alive ) who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    Oh. He must be talking about some of those DEAD that could have buried their DEAD.

    Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Oops. There it is again; being alienated ( separated ) from God.

    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us ( made alive ) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    There's some living people who had been DEAD - separated from God.

    Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

    Just think. God had John write a letter to a whole church congregation that was grave - yard dead. What a waste of time; since, obviously, when you're dead you're unconscious, right?
    Oh. Maybe they were just separated from God?

    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Looks like separation being talked about here to me.
    But, what about those who are "made alive", spiritually? I'm glad you asked...

    Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
    Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


    And Wopik says "amen"...

    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die...


    (Wopik says "WHAT"?? )

    ...Joh 11:26...Believest thou this?

    And Wopik says "NOPE".

    But maybe Wopik can be convinced...

    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: (present tense ) and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life (present tense), and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (present tense).

    1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Garner Ted believed and taught that at death, man's spirit hovered around wherever the decaying body was, scripture teaches me that the spirit goes to God at the death of the body. Jesus promised me in His word that those that believe on Him will never die. ( And that's a double negative in Greek, check it out; "no way, Jose, not in a million years; ain't gonna happen", you know - double negative. )

    I was amused to read people's 'farewell's' to Garner Ted after he died a while back. Almost everyone of them said something like; "take your rest Garner Ted, wait for the resurrection", or "rest, GTA, rest", and so forth. Everyone of them said something similar. The problem is, Garner Ted's theology wouldn't have allowed for it, if followed. The body goes to dirt, the spirit is merely "breath", and there's no consciousness. "Rest" is a verb. How can something that has ceased to exist do anything? How can something that has ceased to exist be the beneficiary of something like "rest"? No. To be theologically correct, from Garner Ted's standpoint, they should have said "rot, Garner Ted, rot". I'm not being mean, and you know I'm right, Wopik.

    Just think, those who adored Adolf Hitler, after he has been burned up into unconsciousness, can say "rest, Adolf, rest". No difference.

    I just realized where an old practice came from...
    If Garner Ted was right, if the spirits of people who have died hover around the tombstones in the graveyard awaiting the resurrection, then there really are evil spirits in graveyards. YIKES, Wopik. Maybe we should start carrying around some salt in out pockets, then, if we get caught out at dark and have to walk past a graveyard, we can throw a pinch of salt over our left shoulder to ward off those evil spirits! What 'cha think? ;)

    Wopik, your problem is that you don't understand that spiritual death is portrayed in scripture as SEPARATION from God. Not annihilation. You are confusing physical death and spiritual death.

    Jim
     
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    The Bible says THE DEAD know not anything (Eccl. 9:5)
    ------------------------
    Wopik, I addressed this quote on another thread. Read in context, it is saying that the dead no longer know things of the earth -- their enjoyment of life and living here on earth is over. It is making a point about the temporal state of our life on earth, as much of Eccl. does.

    Jim W., good post! [​IMG]
     
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

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  5. Jim W

    Jim W New Member

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    How right you are. I'm not immortal - yet. And neither are you. But my spirit has been brought from death to life, and I've been given eternal life.

    I haven't always existed, and neither have you. But God has. In my current mortal state, my physical body is part of me; it will die...

    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible (body) must put on incorruption (glorified body), and this mortal (body) must put on immortality (glorified in every sense).

    ...but my spirit has been made alive - brought back from the dead...

    Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    ...and I have been given eternal life. And I've been given the promise that those who believe in the Son shall never die. That new man, the new spirit creature; created after God in true righteousness and holiness, shall not see death.

    No, I don't yet have immortality, but I do have eternal life.

    Jim
     
  6. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    ".....fear Him which is able to destroy both BODY and SOUL in Hell" (Gehenna of fire). --- Matt 10:28


    Paul agrees with Jesus on annihilation-ism:

    Those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, "these will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
     
  7. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Little Woppy, with "annihilationism" there no sound reason to accept the gospel and to strive to live a moral, productive life. Never knowing the difference as to an 'afterlife' you lose nothing, never having it or knowing it. That's what I tell other JW's.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    wopik,

    I know Matt 10:28 very well. I understand what Jesus talking about. His point is, we do not fear any person who shall persecute against us, they can kill our body-flesh. But, they have no power to take our soul to either heaven or hell. Rather fear the Lord, He have power to take our body & soul to either heaven or hell.

    I know what you want to show us about 'destroy' & 'destruction' to prove it is annihilationism. In your mind, it proves that our body and soul shall be destroyed, it shall be no longer exist for person to be live beyond.

    Destruction or destroy do not take into literally, these are spiritually describes apply that any person who disobey or reject Christ, they shall suffer their punishment is eternal separate from God.

    Many people like Adventists, JW's saying there is no life after their death.

    How about Mark 9:44,46, 48 saying, fire shall NEVER quenched. Quenched means fade away or halt. Christ tells us, fire will remain always continue forever, it is eternality.

    The rich man of Luke chapter 16 is still suffering in the flame right now, his soul is not sleep, his soul is still existing in the flame. His body is already decay away in the buried, but his soul still exist same a spirit.

    Understand, afterlife beyond death is a mystery to us, because we never taste the afterlife beyond death, no way you can prove that there is annihilational after our death.

    I want to share with you a true story about evangelist.

    Evangelist -Robert Summner shared his testimony of a true story about the man in the hospital. He went visit to the hospital to see the dying man. He witnessed the gospel to the dying man, but he reject the gospel - first time. Then, Dr. Summner left hospital, he was not give up on that man. The next time, he visited hospital to witness the gospel to the same man second time, but he still reject the gospel of Jesus Christ second time. He left hospital, but he does not give up on that man. The next third time, he visited hospital to see that man. But, he puzzled, the man is not there, he asked the nurse, where is the patient? She told him, the dying man was scream and panic lost in his control while lie on the bed, the doctors and nurses came to patient's room, trying to hold his arms and legs. He kept on screaming, saying' "Fire pulling my legs down!" "Help! Help!" He died. The man is now in the hell.

    I read another book about the true story of Alberto Rivera, ex-jesuit. When he was boy about 8 years old, he was called by the priest, he have to go to see his mother, because she was dying. So, he went to see his mother. Mother was glad to see him, she begged him to become priest to delivery her. Then, suddenly, her eyes opened wide, and she became panic and scare, she said, She saw fire and demons, she said, "Demons pulling me down! Help me! Help me!" She was out of control, and suddenly she died.

    I read articles of doctors, nurses' experinces, they had seen many patients were panic at their near death.

    Bible proves us, there is a real place - hell after unbelievers' death, they are immediately straight to hell right away after their death. Their souls never sleep or rest beyond their death.

    Afterlife beyond the death is a mystery to us. But, we have to believe and faith what the Bible saying about the afterlife beyond death - hell and heaven. Believe what the Bible saying.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Marcia

    You have said many times that the dead are conscious. Therefore, is it fair to assume by this that you think the dead are alive ?

    And if they are alive immediately after death, how do you square that with what Paul said about the dead not being ALIVE AGAIN till Christ returns (1 Cor. 15:20-23) ?

    Jesus is called the firstfruits of the sleepers; if the dead aren't sleeping, why is Jesus the first of the sleepers to be awakened ?
     
  10. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Verse 22 says that as in Adam all die, so shall all in Christ be made alive. That is talking about spiritual death through Adam and being born again through Christ.

    Sleeping is a term used for the dead believers and refers to their bodies that are not given back until the resurrection of the body. But we know from many, many passages, that I and others have posted on several threads on this topic already , Wopik, that the Bible teaches consciousness after death.

    If Jesus is referred to as the firsfruits of those who have fallen asleep (meaning being dead) and he said to the thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise," then we know that Jesus was conscious after death in paradise, not asleep somewhere. So it is for those who will get their resurrected bodies. 1 Cor 15 is primarily about the resurrection of the body of the believer.
     
  11. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    You fail to differentiate between the body and the soul, which is a rather common mistake among those who share your views.

    The souls of the dead are awake, aware, and conscious. But their bodies are not. Follow?

    Paul was correct when he said:
    But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
    (1 Cor. 15:20-23 ESV)


    Wopik, until you learn what the difference is between figurative, poetic language and non-figurative language, you just ain't gonna get it. And you might want to study up on when the writer is speaking of the body, and when the writer is speaking of the soul. It seems many translators freely interchang words without reason, and it takes effort to see the transitions.

    And you may want to start hanging out with some people other than Jehovah's Witnesses and/or 7th Day Adventists. Their views and beliefs are not biblical, nor are they.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  12. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Trotter

    When Paul said there "are 276 souls in the ship" - Acts 27:37 - Paul is not differentiating between the BODY AND THE SOUL ?

    Stephen did not differntiate between BODY and SOUL when he said, "Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen SOULS" ?

    When the Bible says, "And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls --- the Bible is not differentiating between BODY AND SOUL.


    The Apostles baptized 3,000 people [souls] in one day -- Acts 2:41


    Our Holy Bible does not use "soul" the way Plato did. Plato's "soul" concepts are foreign to the Scriptures. They can not CORRECTLY be applied.

    [ June 22, 2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]
     
  13. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Is any differentiation between body and soul made here? ...

    Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Soul must be interpreted accordint to context. In these passages, it simply means persons. The word soul is used to mean various things and so context is important.
     
  15. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Marcia, thanks for your comments.

    I have never found a context where "soul" means anything but: person, life or even body, etc.

    In Leviticus 21:11, “Neither shall he go in to any dead body [nephesh], nor defile himself….” A nephesh is called a “body” in this scripture. http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ -- type in "body".

    It's astonishing that the Hebrew word for "soul" [nephesh] is the same word for "body" in Leviticus 21:11 -- and a "dead nephesh" at that.
     
  16. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Alcott

    Alcott --A very valid question! According to the above quote, the "soul" can be destroyed in HELL (Gehenna), therefore, it can't be immortal.

    Soul here means "life".

    God told Noah that the life of any animal, or nephesh, was in the blood.

    “But flesh with the life [Hebrew, nephesh] thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall you not eat” (Gen. 9:4).

    Here, the word “life” comes from the same Hebrew word, nephesh. Which is elsewhere rendered “soul” or “body”.

    The life of an animal is called a nephesh (Gen. 9:4).
    The life of a man is called a nephesh (Gen. 9:5). The life of man and the life of animals are the same. Mortal life.

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/
     
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    The word nephesh occurs 754 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.

    They are all listed here ----

    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

    ==================================

    Psuche is the only word translated "soul" in the New Testament.

    It occurs 105 times, and is rendered "soul" 58 times, "life" 40 times, "mind" 3 times, and "heart", "heartily", "us", and "you" once each.

    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    But, Wopik, when we look at what God means by "destroy" in the context of sending the lost to the lake of fire and in other passages (as has been posted here numerous times by many so no need to do it again), we see that it means eternal suffering and torment. This is what destruction means in context of scripture, especially the NT which is where we should primarily look for it since that is where more revelation on this topic is given to us so that we can clearly understand what God means. Could God put a book in a fire and have it so that the book is burning but never burned? Yes, he could.
     
  19. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    The whole idea of Jesus' resurrection is to bring us eternal LIFE so that none will perish.

    He came to give us life because He IS the Life - not life eternal in hellfire. And He said that those who do not believe in Him will 'perish' - like a perishable item that goes through a process of degradation - and therefore, ends up ceasing to exist.
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Wopik, you continue to ignore the passages that speak of the lost in eternal punishment and torment.

    Eternal life is life with Christ; those who are lost in eternal punishment are not having life because it is not life on earth or life in heaven. Continual suffering and torment cannot be life; that is why it is called death, punishment, and destruction. But it is eternal.
     
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