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Featured Eternal Generation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Jun 5, 2024.

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  1. No - God is Immutable and Eternal. The relationship between the Persons of the Godhead is eternal.

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  2. Yes - the relationship between the Father and the Word changed .

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Eternal Generation is the teaching that the divine relationship between the Father and Son within the Godhead is eternal and did not begin with the Incarnation.

    @37818 has strongly denied this and views this divine relationship within the Trinity as having a beginning.

    He is probably not alone., but I want to know how, under that teaching, this relationship changed.

    The issues here include :

    1. A denial of an immutable (in nature) God
    2. A denial of YHWH being eternal (in nature)
    3. An end to the Word (in terms of the Trinity) and a beginning for YHWH as the Son.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In other words -

    @37818 insists that the divine relationship within the Godhead between the 1st and 2nd Persons of the Trinity changed when the Word became flesh BUT has been unwilling to tell us HOW it changed.

    That is what I am interested in.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How He was "with God" was the change.

    He was with God before the incarnation.

    And the how He remained with God after the incarnation, per John 3:13, . . . And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    And per John 17:5, . . . And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Re: Isaiah 42:8, I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, . . .
     
    #3 37818, Jun 5, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2024
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ok....we ALL KNOW HOW He was with God was the change.

    I am asking about Eternal Generation (not about the Incarnation itself).

    You reject Eternal Generation, the teaching that the DIVINE RELATIONSHIP between the 1st and 2nd Persons of the Trinity is eternal.

    This is not about the Word be coming flesh but about how this changed the relationship between the members of the Trinity (how the One True God is not eternal in nature).

    You say that the 2nd Person of the Trinity had one DIVINE relationship IN THE GODHEAD with the Father which was destroyed when He became flesh and a new relationship began.

    I am asking for Scripture proving that belief.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe there is actually any "Eternal Generation."
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know. You believe that there was a change in the divine relationship between the Persons of the Trinity at the Incarnation.

    Today we are much more lax in standards for our doctrine. That is a good thing in many respects. While you would have been a heretic a couple of centuries ago we can argue these things as Christians today.


    How, exactly, did the divine relationship (within the Godhead) between the 1st and 2nd Persons change with the Incarnation?

    Just saying it did change does not help without explaining in what ways.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    From being strictly in the bosom of the Father to being a human on earth in some way, a change from only being the Creator, to addimg now also being a creature. This should have been obvious.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Incarnation is obvious. God became man, the Creator became one of the created.

    BUT again, that is off topic. You keep getting caught up in the Word becoming flesh.

    We are talking about the actual divine (as God) relationship between the 1st Person and 2nd Person of the Trinity.

    Put it this way - when we see the Word in the Old Testament it is at the point where God meets man (called "Christophanies"). No one has seen God the Father. The Son (or the Word) has explained Him.

    When men saw God in the OT, either this was the Word/Son or God lied and they saw the Father.

    The Word came forth from the Father. God spoke, through the Word all things were created, and the Spirit moved.

    Now you want to reinvent Christianity. You want us to believe that the divine relationship between the Persons of the Trinity is not eternal but changes.

    You want us to believe that when the Word became flesh the Word's role in the Godhead stopped and the Son's role began.

    There is a reason this is called "heresy".
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Two, not one, issues. As being God there is zero change between Persons, zero subordination. But being distinctions making the Persons different there is subordination of Persons and changes are possible. God is solely one. God therefore cannot be different, but always Himself. Now the Trinity are Persons. As God not distinct. As Persons are distinct. Luke 3:21-22.

    God as a Person versus Persons who are the same God.
     
    #9 37818, Jun 5, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2024
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Genesis 1:27, . . . God created man in his own image, . . .
    Genesis 1:26, . . . God said, Let us make man in our image, . . .
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Genesis 1:1–3 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. There is only one issue.

    Eternal Generation is simply that the Word did not change in His divinity when He became flesh.

    The other issues are important, but they are not Eternal Generation.

    God, the ONE GOD, has revealed Himself in Three Distinct Persons.

    The Persons of the Trinity are identified by their divine relationship as described in Scripture.

    Your insistence that the divine relationship within the Godhead fluctuates rather than exists eternally is simply an unorthodox belief.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    "With the God" is not the same as "was God.". Yet the Word was always both. And is the first century teaching.

    One does not interpret the first century New Testament by fourth century false teachings.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Nobody is interpreting Scripture with creeds.

    You are, once again, making up stuff. That is called "dishonest".

    The Doctrine of the Trinity restates as a standard that the Word was with God (distinct in Person) and was God (the same One God) and that this divine relationship is eternal (Eternal Generation).


    Again, you hold a very unorthodox position that is historically referred to as "heresy" by denying the eternal nature of the One Triune God (YHWH).


    Tell us a time when the Word was not the Word (the Person of the Trinity we see coming from the Father in the OT and as the Son in the NT).




    You cannot prove that the Persons of the Trinity are not Eternal in the Godhead.

    You can deny that all you want, but you cannot prove it Biblically.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No one can prove the Persons of the Trinity are not eternal.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Then why do you believe it?

    Eternal Generation is the Biblical truth that Jesus DID NOT become Yahweh.....HE IS eternally Yahweh. The One Triune God is eternal. The divine relationship between the Persons of the Trinity within the Godhead is Eternal.

    God really did send His Son into the World. That was not a typo.

    Just because you settled on rejecting Eternal Generation over 30 years ago does not mean you should continue to hold the heresy.


    I think most on this board realize you simply do not understand Eternal Generation and in fact (by your own replies) hold the doctrine as true.


    In fact, that is why you are still here as that level of heresy is not allowed (this is a Christian Board). It works out because I enjoy your posts and respect you. BUT you do misunderstand "Eternal Generation".
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I have always believed the Persons in the Trinity are eternal.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Maybe in a way.

    You have repeatedly stated that you believe that the divine relationship between Jesus and the Father BEGAN when He became man.

    Christian doctrine holds that the One Triune God is Eternnal and Immutable in nature. You say that you reject this.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    False. John 17:24, Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world..
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree with Eternal Generation, so you get no complaint from me.

    You that Eternal Generation is false but then you claim the doctrine to be correct.

    Make up your mind.

    Brother, you cannot have it both ways.

    You cannot reject Eternal Generation in one breath and in the next confirm the doctrine.

    You cannot believe John 17 and at the same time reject John 17.

    Upu cannot say Eternal Generation is false and at the same time believe that this "unity" between the Father and Son is Eternal.

    IF you reject Eternal Generation THEN you believe that the unity between the Father and Son BEGAN at some point in time.

    Stop flip flopping. Stop being two-faced.

    Either you believe the doctrine or you do not.



    John 17:22–26 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
     
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