Eternal Security

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You say these verses contradict other scripture. Apparently you do not believe in the infallible, inerrant, inspired Word of God.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

We go in and out of pasture in our spiritual walk. We are not always in the Spirit. When we are not in the Spirit we are, as I pointed out earlier and as Paul so eloquently stated, in the flesh. And the flesh is weak. There are times I'm closer to the Lord, abiding with Him, and in perfect harmony, thus not sinning. Jesus addresses just such a situation before His crucifixion when He told Peter, James, and John, "Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak."

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.

That which is born of Spirit, is spirit, and that which is born of the flesh, is flesh.
The spirit that is born of the Spirit of the Lord is unable to sin because it is where the seed remains and first germinated. The spirit was born of God.
The flesh remained the same. My enemy and the enemy of the Spirit of God.
That's why Paul said, "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." He realized the fact that although he was born again, he was still in the flesh, and being so, he was subject, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." This humbled him and moved him to admit his shortcomings and be more dependent upon Christ. The standard is taught throughout scripture to live perfect because it is God's standard, but that doesn't null the fact that, "there is none good, no not one."
"Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence."
Ken by stating, "Do I sin? Absolutely not! You have gloried in your own power, your own strength, and in the flesh, which I believe you still abide in.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Your works became worthless, yet God will not forget His work He did in you. That time when you trusted Him as Lord and Saviour and received Him into your heart and soul. There have been many Christians who had alot of potential to do many mighty works in the Name of the Lord and did not achieve them. Because of God, no because of their own slothfulness. Notice the unsaved said, Lord, Lord we have done many mighty works in Thy Name. Because they deceived themselves.
But a born again Christian knows to confess they have always not measured up and only because of God's grace we shall enter in. In case anyone has forgotten, not only is discipline taught and plays a part in the equation, humility is taught throughout scripture and plays a part in this discussion, as well.
What did Christ teach?
Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Remember the righteous in Matthew 25 did not even want to glory in their works.
Notice what is highlighted.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink ?
:38 * When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in ? or naked, and clothed thee?
:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

A Christian doesn't consider himself worthy, keep account of his deeds, nor glory in them, but God knows.

 

Better pray you don't have an impure thought just before you die.:tear:

I am also mindful of those brave Christians who serve in our armed forces that may take God's name in vain just before they take a bullet in the brain or are blown apart by a bomb and their last conscious thought was a lustful thought about their girlfriend back home.

You have just consigned them to hell and you stand an excellent chance of joining them there.

 

This thread is just another reminder that we are in the last days. I can't believe all the false teachings that are circulating this board. It's very sad and disturbing, yet I know that our Lord will come soon and take us home, and that is something to take joy in.

 

I understand what Ken means. Ken knows he would make one mistake maybe today or tomorrow, impossible for him to be holy and sinless life without commit sin. Ken would make one mistake today, or this week, he have to be immediately confess sin to Christ long as Christ is faitfhful to forgive his sins all the time. What Ken must do is walk in the spirit, to keep live holy, because he is holy(1 Peter 1:15-16). Clearly Bible commands us, we ough be holy life, because God is holy, do not be practically sin daily, that what the Bible saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

What Ken "means" is what Ken says! Ken believes he is capeable of walking with perfection (sinlessness) just as Jesus did. Ken no longer needs Jesus' grace for Ken relys upon Ken's sinlessness to get himself into heaven. Ken only needed Jesus' sacrafice for his past sins, Ken no longer needs Jesus' imputed righteousness for Ken is able to enter heaven with his own sinless perfection and perfect obedience.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

With all the tossing around of this verse earlier; what about the REST of it? That would shed light on the issue: "...but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord".
THAT is what applies to "the saved".

 

HP: What gives one the right to tell us who the object of this verse is? Where is the ‘object’ stated or implied? The verse simply is explaining two ideas, the wages of sin and the gift of God. No where does it state or imply that the wages of sin do not apply to one that has accepted salvation by faith, yet turned from it in selfishness, refusing to repent.

 

That is Christ's point in Matt 7 - the good tree produced good fruit.

It is John's point in 1John 2 - those who do not walk as Christ walked and yet claim to know Christ - are mistaken according to John.

But what of those in the Matt 18 case where they WERE frogiven but then later refused to forgive others and so had their "forgivenes revoked"? That is yet another way that OSAS fails.

in Christ,

Bob

 

'Eternal security' ... If God could not give eternal security, you think eternal insecurity could?

'Perseverance of the saints' is not the security of their eternal security : it is God. Much less than their own perseverence could the 'warnings' of insecurity of the free-willers supply guarantee and peace.

 

GE:

You suppose fallen man as unfallen Adam. Redemption is for fallen sinners - for lost, saved! And then whereas before they were eternally lost, they now in Jesus Christ are eternally saved and safe!

 

Nice eisegesis!

Aside from misquoting the portion of the verse from the KJV (and I did not find that wording in any of the 22 other versions I checked either, FTR, the closest being the NKJV, did you ever hear the word "context"??), while you "seen the truth" and your "eyes have been opened" ? And did you happen to notice that this phraseology occurs exactly two times in Scripture, in Matt. 7 and refers to false prophets?? It never refers to one's personal life or to some supposed sins, in a Christian.

Because I like being helpful, I'll quote the verses for you, and embolden some of it, to save a bit of eyestrain.

Did you notice who is the "they" and "them", here? False prophets! Also, when Jesus uses the word rendered in the English language as "therefore", He is concluding a point, and that point is to beware of these false prophets.

I would hope that all of us would both beware of false prophets, and live godly lives, as well. But reading an idea that is not there in the text, into the Scripture, is not a very good way to "live a godly life", at least IMO.

Ed

 

Ken this is the same argument that some (probably a majority even) eternal security people use. The only difference is that they say a person who does these "bad" things simply was never saved before, while you say these can be saved people that lose their salvation.

By the way I've been gone a couple of days and never saw whether or not you think a person has to be baptized to be saved?

 

It's a general statement, drawing a CONTRAST. The point is, we all have sinned and deserve death. And we STILL do. John said "and if WE say WE have no sin, we deceive ourselves". So that IS still adressing Christians, and not just [unconverted] "sinners". The question is, what gives one the right to turn this into a case by case statement? (each and every sin committed). If that were the case, NOBODY could be saved; and precisely the point is that instead of what we really deserve, God gives us eternal life as a "gift". If it was because of our no longer sinning, then it would no longer be a gift, but rather wages paid for a debt.

Another point; "walking after the flesh" includes thinking one is saved by their own efforts of keeping the commandments. Most of those statements were aimed at unconverted Israel; who trusted in both their works, as well as their physical lineage as proving they were God's people (and hence, "the flesh").

 

good point -- Romans 11 and Matt 18 are the kinds of texts that most directly refute BOTH kinds of OSAS --

(as is the case with John 15:1-6 and Gal 5) they show people JOINED to Christ being "severed from Christ" and in the case of John 15 -- dying and tossed into the fire once dead.

in Christ,

Bob