Eternal Union of Christ and His Children

The metaphor of "head" does not refer to any kind of SPIRITUAL UNION but rather to the position of AUTHORITY just as the husband is the "head" of the wife. The husband's head is not attached to the wife's physical body. He is simply in the POSITION of AUTHORITY over the wife.

The Son of God before the world began and after the world began was in the position of AUTHORITY over every male human being (1 Cor. 11:3) just as the Father before the world began was the "head" of Christ (1 Cor. 11:3) or in the POSITION OF AUTHORITY over the Son.

BTW The Son of God was the "head" of Adam and every male born from Adam (1 Cor. 11:3) but that does not mean he was in spiritual union with every male born from Adam!!!! However, your rediculous interpretation would demand that the Son of God was in spiritual union with every male born of Adam:

1 Cor. 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The basis for this statement is the order in creation (vv. 7-9) in the position given Adam over Eve. Hence, this is based upon creation of mankind rather than salvation or church membership in any kind of church.

 

I don't follow your line of reasoning here, Brother. Jesus died for sinners, correct? If He died for sinners, then they were/are lost, correct? Now, one can not and will not be in Christ while they are a condemned sinner, correct? So, then can they be in Christ the whole time, while Jesus still had to die for sinners? Please elaborate further. Thanks in advance.

 

Well, Brother SBG, Jesus came to die for sinners. He came to seek and save that which was lost. When He died, He took every sin upon Him, and nailed it with Him on the cross. A condemned sinner is never in Christ while he is in that condemned state. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. That's why when we are saved, we are clothed in Jesus' righteousness when He cleanses us with His blood. It is here, that we are placed in Christ.

 

SBG believes that simply because according to God's eternal purpose we were chosen "in Christ" before the world began then we we actually existed in spiritual union with Christ before the world began and therefore when we came into this world we never were under condemnation because we were justified "in Christ" by eternal purpose before the world began.

He confuses God's PURPOSED THOUGHT with reality. He actually believes the UNFULFILLED purposed thoughts of God are reality and if he were consistent he would have to beleive that your unfulfilled but purposed thoughts are reality as well. The man is confused as he cannot distinguish between NON-EXISTENT but PURPOSED reality and EXISTENT and FULFILLED reality.

 

SBG will admit all the elect were "in Adam" physically and were born of Adam and thus all were sinners "in Adam" by nature. However, if they were sinners "in Adam" by nature through physical birth then they were also CONDEMNED "in Adam" by nature and children of wrath even as others were "in Adam" by nature (Eph. 2:2-3).

Hence, there was no actual salvation provided or applied before the world began just as there was no actual existence of the elect at all before THEIR CREATION IN ADAM but they existed only as MERE THOUGHT in God's purpose which would need God's POWER to become reality thorugh CREATION or else they would not have been born sinners in Adam at all but would have been born redeemed, reconciled, regenerated and glorified.

 

SBG's doctrine and the Mormon doctrine of preexistent spirit children have more in common with each other than either has with God's Word.

SBG actually believes the elect REALISTICALLY EXISTED before they were actually created by God. He believes that the PURPOSED THOUGHTS of God are more real than the FULFILLED THOUGHTS of God through the CREATIVE POWER of God.

SBG quotes Hebrews 11:1 to prove faith is substance and therefore God's THOUGHTS are real existent substance. However, he fails to consider the remainder of Hebrews 11:1 where faith is the substance of things "HOPED" for and hope is unnecessary where there is substantive REALITY!

Every text he abuses to insert his HUMAN LOGIC into the text to assert these things when that text can more easily and logically be understood to mean that "in Christ" in eternity past simply had to do with unfulfilled but purposed redemption provided by Christ that became fulfilled only after creation in time and space.

Take a look at a blue print of house before the house is built in time and space. The blue print shows us what is In the mind of the archetect and we can see in the blue print every detail and that house exists only as a THOUGHT and IDEA and the blue print presents it as a PLAN and PURPOSE but without any other kind of existence UNTIL POWER is applied in time and space to FULFIL the plan.

The same is true with prophecy. Prophecy predicts God's purpose but until it is fufilled in time and space it is mere predictive purpose without real existence in this world.

SBG confuses THOUGHT with MATTER and ETERNITY with TIME and PURPOSE with FULFILLMENT.

 

Note the explanation - "according to his own purpose" not according to any kind of substantive existence. They were not spiritually existent and spiritually inseparable from the nature of God the Son - that is mormon kind of doctrine! God had a plan before the world began and that plan involved Christ making provision for the elect - thus in that sense - we were "in Christ" or in the plan God made concerning Christ for the elect.

No, it is not, because that union was due to CREATION at a specific point in time and that is precisely what you are ignoring concerning being "in Christ" (Eph. 2:10) by creation at a specific point in time.

You shelf your brain in this discussion. They had not been given grace in regard to thier existing person but given grace IN THE PLAN OF GOD just as a house is given rooms in the blue print of the Archetech - not because these rooms have any actual existence.

It is pure blindness to claim the elect "fell" in Adam and "sinned" in Adam but were not "condemned" in Adam when the Bible explicitly states that all men were condemned "in Adam"

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

Hence, you admit they "incurred" condemnation! Good confession. Certainly it was laid to Christ's charge in PURPOSE before the world began, in PROVISION with Christ on the cross but not in APPLICATION or POSITION until faith in the gospel (Rom. 5:1).

What you don't get is there is NO KIND OF APPLICATION to the PERSON of the elect before the world, in the provision, until they were separated by the Spirit of God ("sanctified by the Spirit") and until "belief of the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13).

Before being personally set apart by the Spirit, before belief in the truth, they were "EVEN AS OTHERS" and children of wrath under condemnation in unbelief in regard to their actual PERSON.

Yes, that is mormon like doctrine because to God they did not actually exist because if they did then He had no need to CREATE anything and anyone because they already existed to God. Such is your absolute foolish position.

Another foolish analogy. Why?

1. Creation in Adam preceded seminal seed in Abraham and so it does "in Christ" - Eph. 2:10

2. Physical cannot be compared to Spiritual as the Spirit has no reproductive system that contains "seed" seminally or otherwise.

3. No text demands this kind of foolish thinking and no text says any such thing. - it is all produced by your HUMAN LOGIC

4. The texts that you FORCE to teach this by HUMAN LOGIC, not by what they say or mean are explained by other scriptures simply to mean that the elect were justified as much as glorifed "in Christ" only by PURPOSEFUL DESIGN.

5. If your LOGICAL CONCLUSION were correct then we were equally never unregenerated because we were "called" in Christ before the world began equally as justified.

6. If your LOGICAL CONCLUSION were correct then we were equally never unglorified because we were "glorified" in Christ before the world began equally as justified.

7. Your logic is foolish and unbiblical and forced upon the scriptures and blasphemeous as it demands that the elect are God's children due to derivation from pre-incarnate divine NATURE and thus god's just as Mormon's teach.

The Hebrew text simply asserts that this Son which was given was the "father of eternity" or the Creator of all things not that he was a real "Father" in the sense of Mormonism producing other god's. That is precisely what you are teaching the Mormon doctrine of polytheism - many God's reproduced from a previous existing God.

 

I am utterly surprised that a professing Christian and Pastor can allow such things to be spoken from his own lips. I am more surprised that this board allows him to speak this way. Anyone lost or not coming to read this trash talk would never return here.
Please be an example and charitable when responding to others on this forum and in real life. If you can talk this way to others on the internet I can only guess how you speak to those of your own family and congregation. "That don't agree with you or do what you want."

 

Bill Wald...

Where do you get the idea that its Gods fault that some people choose to reject Christ???

 

"called" and "glorified" are not legal terms and yet both are inseparably linked to "justified" in Romans 8:30 in regard to Gods' eternal purpose. You cannot have one without the other. Please attempt to explain how the elect were NEVER unglorified and NEVER unregenerated and then you will be consistent with your argument that the elect were eternally justified and thus NEVER under condemnation.

 

Much better Pastor Mark! See how easy it is!:thumbsup:

 

However, the problem you are overlooking is that they are EQUALLY contained in the eternal purpose of God with "justified" and therefore you have cannot claim the elect were NEVER AT ANY TIME UNDER CONDEMNATION because they were justified "in Christ" according to God's eternal purpose unless you also claim they were eternal "called" and "glorified" as these are inseparable from "justified" in Romans 8:30 and in the eternal purpose of God.

If the latter two have no REALISTIC EXISTENCE to the elect in eternity past neither does "justified" and vica versa.

 

Again, you are ignoring the relationship between "justifed" and "called" and "glorified" in regard to "them" in Romans 8:30 and the fact that this is GOD's VIEW from His eternal purpose (v. 28). You cannot pick and choose but that is exactly what you are doing in order to justify your theory!