Featured Ethics Question

You indicated no scholars/commentators support my view, but Luther defended "a good hearty lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian Church, a lie in case of necessity, a useful lie." Such lies, he said, "would not be against God."

I think another thing we have to remember is that truth is not a second god, but Truth is a person. God is Truth, and devotion to Him first and foremost is what is called for. This is why Joshua obeyed when told to kill women, children and livestock. This is why Abraham obeyed when told to kill his son. This is why Rahab lie to protect God's spies. They valued the Truth, as a person, higher than they valued true facts and rules. People who haven't learned to relate to Truth as a person tend to rest in the legalism of the truth as a set of rules. (I'm not saying you are doing that, but any of us, generally speaking, have that tendency)

Here is another example of God using a lie to accomplish his purpose:

17 And Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, "Strike these people with blindness." So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked. 19 Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for." And he led them to Samaria. 20 After they entered the city, Elisha said, "LORD, open the eyes of these men so they can see." Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria.

John, tell me this. If your teenage daughter were home alone and a suspicious stranger came to the door (or called on the phone) and asked her if she were alone, would you want her to lie or tell the truth?

 

Since when is Luther the authority?

 

See my response below.

Question begging? Hardly. I have the revelation of God. (See my post listing Scriptures.) I didn't decide on my own that lying was always wrong. I came to the view that it is because of the revelation of God in the Bible. If Biblical presuppostions equal question begging, then we all do that every time we debate here on the BB.

Why are you making this personal? Why did you bring my son into this? Didn't you accuse me of making it personal earlier? Beyond that, God would not ask me to sacrifice my son in this age of grace. That's so OT!

But I'll answer your loaded question anyway. The God I know and love and follow would never want me to murder my son. I know that as surely as I know I'm saved because of the revelation of God in the Bible. So if I get a command from God to sacrifice my son I would know from the Scriptural revelation of God that He would want me to go through the motions, but He had some other plan to be carried out before I completed that. I think that is exactly what Abraham thought and did.

Start another thread on discipline if you want and I'll meet you there. Suffice it to say that if God disciplined us for all our sins we'd all be sick, injured or otherwise in trouble all the time. It has nothing to do with cake, it has to do with how we walk with God. I have a well developed Scriptural concept of God's discipline in my mind based on both revelation and personal experience, and I stand by what I said.

Are you trying to teach me OT theology now? Why are you making this personal? I don't have to do a thing you are saying here, I've already done it all. I've prayerfully thought and studied and prayed through all of this.

 

JohnofJapan,

That is a most Christian and honest response, and I appreciate that. You've addressed it succinctly, exposing the intent and the reality of the 'personal' responses, avoided going down a road of pejoratives, and remain Biblically correct in so doing.

Thanks for not allowing it to continue on any other intended course.

:thumbs:

 

Luther? No thanks. I have no respect for his ethics.

So you don't believe in written revelation? There is only living truth, not written truth? That's what you appear to be saying here.

I see no lie here.

You're kidding, right? First of all, once again you've made this personal. I'll ignore that though since I don't have a daughter. Secondly, as a martial arts instructor, I taught my child (only had one) self defense. If I had a daughter I pity the man that tried to assault her. But it wouldn't happen because I teach situation awareness. My daughter would not need to lie on the phone, she'd hang up. She wouldn't open the door to a stranger, she'd call 911. So your hypotheticals are bogus.

How about if we get away from your hypotheticals and go to real self defense situations where a lie was not needed but God protected. This is from my pamphlet, A Christian Philosophhy of Self Defense, published by the Gospel Martial Arts Union.

 

Thanks for the encouragement, brother. :wavey:

 

Folks, I'm going to bow out of this thread now. In the first place we're starting to go round and round now. In the second place no one has answered my Scriptures to any satisfaction. But most of all, I have to fly out to a missions conference in Mass. early in the morning, so I don't think I'll be able to post for a few days, depending on where I stay and so forth. (Patty is staying here in Lansing to help care for her father, who had a major stroke recently.) If I can, I may look in again though.

It's been a good debate. Thanks to all who interacted with me. :wavey:

 

So, if God asked you to lie for him, as he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, you'd pick your ethics and rules over obeying God? Interesting. Enough said.

When discussing suppositions for the sake of an argument the suppositions is just that...SUPPOSED. You have NO idea what God would or wouldn't do and so if we SUPPOSE for the sake of argument that he asked me or you or some random person to sacrifice their son, as he did Abraham, then that person would have to decide between obeying God or his own ethics and rules. The fact that it happened in the OT has nothing to do with whether or not what God and Abraham did was right or wrong. His nature doesn't change and neither does truth. God is TRUTH and we obey him, not anyone's limited finite understanding of ethics. You make it appear that truth is greater than God, when Truth is God and we are to obey Him, not man's rules. It was against the rules to sacrifice a son to God during Abraham's day too, but which one did Abraham obey? The rules or God?

Abraham could have said the exact same thing, but its a good thing he didn't.

That's beside the point. You indicated no other commentators or scholars agreed and this was just one notable scholar who did, that is all.

I do believe in written truth, but there is the little problem of human interpretation. God is TRUTH, He is the ultimate interpretation and obedience to him outweighs my obedience to a set of legalisms. As Aaron rightly noted:

I agree that we are going in circles and probably should end this. BTW, nothing in my post was meant to be 'personal,' those are called analogies and I could have easily made them about some random unknown person. That is what so-called 'situational ethics' is all about: SITUATIONS, which we PERSONALLY might find ourselves in. I think we all can see the stark difference in the use of an analogy to make an point about the topic at hand and critiquing someone's debating skills.

What have we learned from this debate? We now know that if God himself appeared to you in person and told you to lie in order to smuggle in bibles you wouldn't obey Him and I would, so I guess that is why He has called me do it and not you.

Thanks for the spirited debate :thumbs:

 

Had to comment on this. Please read it again. I'm emboldened the lie. He said he would lead the enemies to the man they were looking for but he tricked them and took them to Samaria.

 

They're not lies when told to protect innocent life. It is not a lie. It is not a "lesser evil" to prevent a greater one. It is an act of love. It is an act of righteousness

Don't you find it somewhat hypocritical to think that one can mislead those of evil intent with his actions to save innocent life, but not with his words? What was purpose of anyone hiding the Jews but to let the Nazis think they weren't there?

You've been given the example of Rahab, the Egyptian midwives, and I will also give you David, who feigned madness to escape Achish. Was that less of a lie than one made with words?

These things are not done because God needs them. Does God need your preachin'? Your alms? Your prayers? Your fasting? It ain't about what God needs, it's about what we're commanded to do, and that is to love our neighors as ourselves.

In times of persecution, remind me not to send anyone your way. "Here they are, officer! But I'm trusting God to protect them from you!"

 

WOW!
Isa 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

 

You are question begging by presuming what Abraham did was evil when he raised his hand to sacrifice his son. You are presuming what Rahab did was evil when she deceived the soldiers by hiding the Israelite spies, You are presuming what Elisha did was wrong when he misled the enemies of God. You are presuming that I am doing evil to deceive muslim guards by not answering their questions truthfully about what I'm carrying when I'm taking much needed bibles to my brother.

These are NOT acts of evil as your quote above assumes. They are heroic! We are in a war here people! Wake up!!! If an Army General fakes out his enemies by pretending to flank troops one direction and then surprise attacking them from the front is he evil? Must our army Generals truthfully tell our enemies our war strategies? Come on brothers! See the bigger picture.

17 And Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, "Strike these people with blindness." So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked. 19 Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for." [He is deceiving the enemy of God] And he led them to Samaria. 20 After they entered the city, Elisha said, "LORD, open the eyes of these men so they can see." Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria.

Our warriors are not EVIL! They are heroes!!! Don't equate the deception of a warrior to win a battle against the enemies of God with the evil of a selfish greedy lawyer lying to company to get more money. That is what you are doing here and it is not objective, fair or reasonable IMHO.

 

I didn't know you were familiar with Dr. Bob Jones Sr.

I always liked, "Do right 'till the stars fall."

 

You seem to be arguing John's point - that deception (misdirection) is not the same as a lie.

 

Interesting situation. There are so many ways to do this now (no need to get into them on public boards) that one doesn't have to lie. You can legally and lawfully enter the place without having more or anything you are not allowed to bring.
That means that unless you get caught while you're actually distributing, there's nothing to answer. One has already taken it on themselves to break that law, so if caught, why lie? Just say yes. It's a risk one one decided to take when they decided to break the law of that area. The person needs to think long and hard about whether they are willing to take the consequences if they get caught. I don't believe that in a situation like this, a Christian would benefit spiritually by lying in a situation like this.

Lots of people went for a long time without having hard copies of the Bible, yet they still heard. Missionaries, evangelists, preachers, believers, they all have mouths, and once the word is taught, it's hard to forget.

So, little summary. If it seems it is entirely needed for a place to have hard copies, there's ways to do it. However, do it in a way where you don't have to lie. If you do get caught distributing, tell the truth. It seems that denying the truth while being there to tell the truth would be contradictory and not be a good testimony. You're either willing to risk it or not. That's it. Make your choice and stick with it.

 

I can take just a few minutes.

You've not understood the theological basis of my argument. Enough said.

What do you mean by rules? FACT: God hates a lying tongue. FACT: God never told anyone to lie and never commended a lie. FACT: The Bible is written truth, the Word of God.

You mentioned legalism before. Is it then your opinion that trusting the very words of the Bible is legalism? Thiis is not the normal theological definition at all.

Please don't twist my words. You've misconstrued my argument.

I have enjoyed it.

 

This is linguistic and semantic heresy. You can't change the meaning of a word like that and make sense. Is it an untruth communicated for the purpose of deceptiion? It is a lie. Is it the same thing done for a good purpose? It is still a lie. Is truth no longer truth because it is used for an evil end? No, it is still truth. Do you see?

Go back and read what I've written. you are not yet understanding my position.

David was not commended by the Lord. We have no evidence that God considered his misdirection to be a righteous one. I believe he was wrong to be with the Philistines in the first place.

The huge difference is that preaching, alms, prayer and fasting are never called sins in Scripture. They are righteous acts, assuming the motive is pure. And God is holy just as much as He is love.

You are completely mis-characterizing my positon--is that on purpose?

 

Yet, you can't find the time to explain it? Not enough said.

Yet, the story of Rahab and the others remain...He also hates a parent who kills a son but yet the story of Abraham remains. Maybe things aren't as back and white as you'd like to think?

Gen. 22:2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Hebrews 11:17 NIV
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,

The scripture must be interpreted and men make mistakes. You assume your interpretation is the correct one (question begging) and thus rule my view as 'not following the word of God.'

 

But not treacherous deception. It is not a sin to deceive one-hell bent on doing violence to the innocent. On the contrary, we have accounts of God rewarding those who have done so. The commandment is not a prohibition on false witness, period. It is a prohibition of false witness against one's neighbor.

Are the enemies of God my neighbor? No, I hate them with pefect hatred and count them my enemies, Ps 139:21. God rewarded the Egyptian midwives with houses of their own, and He honored Rahab, for their acts of bravery and faith.

If one is hiding the truth, he is hiding the truth whether he is using curtains, trapdoors under rugs under tables, or words.

I find it appalling that one would indict another in his acts of charity, because he has a legalistic kink in his think.

 

"You do err, not knowing the Scripture." Do you actually think the Decalogue is the only place in the Bible that condemns false witness? And doing it against your neighbor is the only wrong false witness?

"16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him... 19 A false witness that speaketh lies..." (Prov. 6).

"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape" (Prov. 19:5).

Mt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

And Christ quoted the Decalogue without the "against your neighbor" statement in Matt. 19:18, Luke 18:20, as Paul did in Rom. 13:9. Etc. etc. How many verses do you need?

Once again, God did not honor them for deception, but for the overall deed of charity, the end, not the means. There is no way you can prove otherwise, no matter how often you repeat it.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

I find it appalling that immediately after quoting the Decalogue on bearing false witness against your neighbor, you do exactly that against me. I have not on this thread or ever anywhere "indicted another in his acts of charity." I have pointed out how God commended both Rahab and the Hebrew midwives; I have agreed with Skan that those who hid Jews from the Nazis were heros; I have highly commended Skan in his Bible smuggling. You have borne false witness against me and should be ashamed.