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ever heard of anything like this?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by timothy 1769, Apr 1, 2003.

  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I like what your pastor did, J.C. -- with all the everyday things most of us have to concentrate on during the week, it's really nice to have that 'memory jerk' about Sunday, which then sparks thoughts about the Word of God again in all its richness. And yes, the kids DO remember more that way. So do the adults!

    Your post was fine -- so was your explanation. I fully agree with you. I don't think your church with the drums and such would be MY 'cuppa tea', but God bless you all and I know you are brothers and sisters in Christ!

    You know what's funny? I'm avidly defending the use of visual prompts, and yet I attend a church which does not use any and where the pastor is very intellectual -- but also very humble and well-studied. Still, we have visited churches that are the other way and you know something? I don't forget! You are sure right about that! Some I don't forget for very good reasons, and some for not-so-good reasons. But always it leaves us with a lot to think about -- and that is a good thing!
     
  2. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Actually you can trace it back even further to the OT prophets and into the ministry of Jesus. Remember the "does any one have a coin handy" illustration?

    Re-read my post regarding how different eras were accustomed to certain methods of teaching and communication. Methods change - message doesn't.

    Your opinion is noted. I just hope you are consistent here and that you do not listen to preachers who use illustrations.

    And your experience and means of learning is not the same as everyone's. Moot point. I could argue I learned certain truths through visual aids.

    Please do not use illustrations!!! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Again your opinion is noted.

    Sadly your words have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Preaching methods (whether one is employing the expository model and/or using visual aids) have nothing to do with trying to "create a hunger" within a sinner. I recognize those who come to God do so based upon His sovereign plan of salvation. Yet the reality of such does not negate the responsibility of the messenger to package the truth in an understandable fashion.
     
  3. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    See if you can understand this Molly:

    GOD'S WORD IS PRIMARY

    I USE MODERN METHODS AND INNOVATIONS TO COMMUNICATE THAT PRIMARY TRUTH


    Remember you are not the determiner of what is legitimate and what is not.

    Again, I type slowly here:

    I TRUST IN THE POWER OF THE WORD

    I BELIEVE I SHOULD COMMUNICATE THE WORD IN AS EFFECTIVE A MANNER AS POSSIBLE


    I am hoping that one day if we have enough of these conversations you will recognize people can think differently than you and still have as high a view of God and the Bible as you (and maybe even higher). Until then, let the dialogue continue :cool:
     
  4. Thankful

    Thankful <img src=/BettyE.gif>

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    JC, I, personally, see nothing wrong with what your pastor did. In fact, I like it. There is nothing about holes in a shirt or socks that can hurt someone, but a demonstration with a knife can.

    I am not opposed to demonstrations, visual illustrations, but I think the pastor stabbing himself with a knife was something that I would not want a child to think that he could do.

    I had a pastor once who dressed like a homeless person and stood out in front of his church to see how his members would treat him. I think I have heard of other pastors doing this. The members did not recognize him and they did not treat him very well either. Sad story.

    I have heard of some other demonstrations with guns, but we must remember the times we are living in and many things that we did in the past are just not acceptable today.
     
  5. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    SBC, glad to see you are still using the Scripture to defend your position. :rolleyes: No, it is more like this: I don't read where we can't do this, therefore, it must be legitimate.

    SBC, Murph, Helen, and others, has anyone argued against illustrations. Perhaps I skipped all those posts.

    Murph, I already explained my reasons for including the "this isn't about calvinism" line (which btw, this post has nothing to do with).

    Murph, what was your point with the Aeropagus preaching time of Paul? Please explain and I will answer.

    Btw, SBC, if Scripture was such a high view in your mind, you wouldn't result to tactics that try to entice people to the word. It doesn't matter if a person remembers a message a week later. Why is that the criteria for your theory? What matters is that the congregation sees the Scripture and understands it. That way, when they read that passage again, they can move on to deeper truth instead of the same "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" drivel. Wait, do you sermonize your texts? Just a question.
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Murph, I do not include men of God in the term "pulpiteers." Satan has many ministers masquerading as ministers of Christ.

    And though the man in the example that began this thread may have been a man of God, (no way for me to know from the info given) the tactic he employed was clearly for exhibition, not for bringing a point "home."

    [ April 05, 2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  8. Gib

    Gib Active Member

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    My pastor has used visual objects during his sermon. Maybe 3-4 times in the last year. But, I agree with others that a knife stabbing the chest is a little overboard. TMO.
     
  9. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    I used Scripture examples in a post above. Besides what I have learned from you is that the text does not matter. You are going to make it say what you want with or without contextual consideration.

    Actually my philosophy is more like: if a method does not violate a biblical principle, it can be employed to communicate the unchanging message.

    OTOH, Preach's philosophy is: if I do not prefer it (with our without scriptural support), it must be wrong because I am absolutely right in all matters of faith and practice [​IMG]

    **** edited to remove name calling***
    This whole thread is about an illustration. You simply believe you have the right to decide what is appropriate & legitimate and what is not.

    You may want to actually read my posts before you respond to them. I believe salvation is of GOD and no one else. Making a message clear and understandable through the use of illustrations has nothing to do with enticing people.

    Have you ever pastored a church?
    I almost laugh when you suggest it doesn't matter to you if they remember a sermon. You had better hope your people are able to grasp something to take home with them.

    My criteria is simple: present solid biblical truth in an applicable fashion (the Neh 8 paradigm).

    I am willing to compare the exegesis and application of any of my sermons to yours any day of the week ;) . As I have stated multiple times before, my method is expositional-application: present the truth of the text in a way they can take it to work or school on Monday. The goal of my preaching is not information. It is implementation.

    I also find it amazing that you believe the concept "God loves you and has a purpose for your life" is drivel.

    The more I hear you discuss matters of preaching- pastoring-theology, the more I thank God for delivering me out of that mindset.

    [ April 04, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  10. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Although this was not directed to me, I did want to thank Aaron for not using an illustration to criticize illustrations. [​IMG]

    Any response to my post to you above??
     
  11. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    1. I find it amazing that you could put quotes as though that is exactly what I said. I am wondering who lacks in reading the others' posts? :rolleyes:

    Btw, where in Scripture is such an idea found. What if the plan for your life was to serve as a martyr where you would be tortured for a week before they savagely killed you? Oops.

    2. Did you want to discuss the issue or fill it with ad hominems? I could just as easily say that only by God's grace (not some gnostic mysticism) am I firm in my beliefs.
     
  12. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Sorry Preach. Let me quote you exactly:

    That way, when they read that passage again, they can move on to deeper truth instead of the same "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" drivel.

    There we go. Now is that better? :rolleyes:


    Did you want to discuss the issue or fill it with ad hominems? I could just as easily say that only by God's grace (not some gnostic mysticism) am I firm in my beliefs.

    I find these words particularly delightful considering you failed to address one primary point that I raised. So it goes in the world of Preach.

    If you are linking my beliefs to gnostic mysticism, you are more full of yourself than I ever imagined.

    OTOH, should we expect any less from The [​IMG]

    [ April 04, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I use illustrations, analogies, humor, pantomime and other devices to enhance my preaching. But the PREACHING is foremost, not the illustration.

    Stabbing myself would be a spectacular. Raising the dead, rolling in the aisles, speaking in tongues, slaying in the spirit - WOW. Now THAT would get attention.

     
  14. Charlotte Marcel

    Charlotte Marcel New Member

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    Parables and illustrations were used by Jesus Christ when teaching. I'm not sure why it is considered wrong on this thread. (by some)

    I think the question you might ask yourselves is what would you have thought about the loaves and fishes, or when water was turned into wine, Or all that faith healing of the time period. What about the parables? The wheat and the tares, The wise man and where he built his house. What about the simpler illustrations like the coin and who's image was on it, or Jesus' admonision that whoever was without sin throw the first stone? The woman and the well? Would you have reacted as you have here? I'm sure many people did at the time. ;)

    I understand that this particular illustration might have seemed shocking. But is it as shocking as Eastor depictions of the crucifiction or the resurection? My church has a song for Eastor in which towards the end, you hear a metal hammer driving metal nails...is this not also shocking? It brings me to tears every time. It also drives home the horrific truth of the sacrifice that Jesus made for all of us.

    I personally think that whatever makes Bible truths memorable and obsorbed by those who are not able to understand completely in more subtle ways (as we all are to different degrees) should not be discounted as coming from God. Unless you are God, how would you know? We can't always see how hearts are changed can we? Of course we can't.


    God Bless You,
    Charlotte
     
  15. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    God's word is wonderful enough on its own...it is fascinating,descriptive,and everything we need. Preaching is the means by which God works. I don't think preaching includes wild attention getters...some may say,well if it works then isn't it okay...no,because that is pragmatism. Being biblical is the means by which we know if things are right or not...not what draws a crowd,makes people laugh,or even what makes people remember. I happen to believe that there is a line to cross where the speaker becomes the emphasis,not God...where God's word alone is not enough and people resort to other things. With a good conscience,they think they are helping,but in reality,there are taking away from God's word and creating impact,when God's word(as Charlotte has mentioned) has all the impact we need. Those were not illusrations,by the way,they were God's Word. And...to repeat,some illustrations are appropriate,some are not.
     
  16. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    And I would simply remind you that you are not the determiner of where the line is nor of what is appropriate and what is not. [​IMG]
     
  17. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    I'm not saying I am,but would you agree that there is a line? Who does determine where the line is?
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    We've been around and around on this before. Since others are new to this kind of discussion:

    As I said 1 X 10 to the nth degree times before. It isn't about illustrations or methods, it's about the kind of illustrations or methods.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    And I would simply remind you that you are not the determiner of where the line is nor of what is appropriate and what is not. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]A glittering jewel of inconsistency! You stated elsewhere:
    thereby setting yourself up as a determiner of where the line AND of what is appropriate and what is not.

    [ April 05, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  20. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    SBC,

    What is the purpose of discernment in today's church? Are you saying noone can say anything against anything,because none of us should be determining good versus evil or right vs wrong? The bible says to examine everything carefully...why does it say that if we are not supposed to? Who does get to decide these things when it is not clear biblical commands or instructiions,how is a decision ever made? Can't biblical principles and wisdom account for something? Where and how do you determine what is okay and not okay in your church??? Then are you saying what is right or wrong...why can you do that about certain things,but you go against those who do that here?

    I see a clear line,maybe it is gray to some....

    [ April 04, 2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]
     
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