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Featured Everthing that comes to Pass is Ordained of God

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Jun 29, 2014.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Why not rest secure, if you believe it is God who predestined His Covenant people, the Sheep, either to be a Calvinist or to be opposed it?

    It could very easily be said that the.....

    19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you


    ....is speaking of Calvinism heresies.

    Calvinism works against itself and is why it self implodes when studied out. When one works through it's determinism to it's final conclusions, one can see a meaningless life, void of real consequences for real life freewill choices, and as people (both lost and saved) being nothing more than puppets on a string totally controlled by a Great Puppet Master.

    Judgments are pointless if the subjects had no real choices in their decisions.

    The Calvinist must buy into the lie that we all have a choice, but we are all obligated to choose as God directs us to choose. That is NOT a choice. Common everyday applications of word meanings must be spun into this weave of error called Calvinism in order for it to be believed and accepted. I do not understand why a devoted bible student would allow themselves to be so manipulated as to find a need to reinterpret hundreds of passages in order to make a theology survive the text.
     
    #1 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    When the Calvinist sees the words "must be", he interprets this to mean that event was determined, or ordained by God, but scripture shows that is not true.

    Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    When the soldiers came for Jesus in the garden, Peter drew his sword and cut off the high priest's servants right ear who was named Malchus (Jhn 18:10)

    Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, and then asked Peter a rhetorical question, "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than tweleve legions of angels?"

    Now, this question demands a YES answer. So Jesus did not have to allow these soldiers to take him if he did not want to go. He could have called on his Father to rescue him. And most importantly, Jesus also implied that his Father would answer his prayer in the affirmative, and would send more than twelve legions of angels to rescue him.

    But then in verse 54 Jesus asks, But how then shall the scripture be fulfilled, that thus it "must be"?

    This shows that the words "must be" do not mean that this event was determined, only that it was certain that it must happen.

    If it was determined by God that Jesus MUST be taken in the garden, then it would have been impossible for God the Father to send more than twelve legions of angels to rescue Jesus as Jesus clearly implied his Father would.

    No, Jesus had to make a choice and be obedient to his Father for this event to actually take place as foretold in scripture.

    But Jesus didn't have to do this, otherwise his statement in verse 53 would be a complete lie. He might have been able to call on his Father, but his Father would not have sent angels to rescue him as Jesus clearly implied.

    So, the words, "must be" do not mean that something is determined and cannot happen another way.
     
    #2 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    There is an irony to TULIP's version of "everything that comes to pass has been ordained by God".

    I am here on this board working to persuade men the fallacies of Calvinism. Thus, according to Calvinism the work I am doing here has been ordained by God. So why should Calvinist argue against me? Are they not arguing against what God has ordained to come to pass? How do they think they can argue against and change the will of God which is to have me debunk Calvinism?

    Things to ponder.......
     
    #3 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yes, especially since scripture says God is not divided against himself.

    Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
    25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

    You would have to believe that God wants division in his own house if everything is ordained. God has ordained that Christians fight among themselves and oppose each other. God is working to tear down his own house.

    Oh well...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc
     
    #4 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Are straw man arguments "ordained by God?" Nobody who actually understands the Sovereignty of God would ever suggest all that happens is ordained by God.

    God has both a perfect and a permissive will. Some things He ordains to come to pass and some things he permits to come to pass. Why blame God for your failure to understand rather simple Theology?
     
    #5 TCassidy, Jun 29, 2014
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You asking Winman and I , or the Calvinist? I'm assuming the Calvinist since it is their position that everything that comes to pass is ordained by God.
     
    #6 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  7. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    And, this demonstrates you don't know the difference between "ordain" and "decree."

    If you're sincerely trying to wrestle poor, unsuspecting, ignorant people away from the clutches of the evil Calvinists, you might try addressing something other than the grotesque caricature that many--such as yourself--have painted in their ignorance (or in their turpitude).

    The Archangel
     
    #7 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Then why don't you explain the difference in detail so that we can be certain not to misrepresent you. I notice you forgot to do that. :rolleyes:
     
    #8 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It's been given many times over. But, because I do not wish to be a cause of your stumbling which, in your apparent state you are unable to avoid doing, I will give you no occasion to slander and, thus, I will remain silent on your question.

    The Archangel
     
    #9 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You better not ever become a salesman, you will starve to death. :laugh:
     
    #10 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    That implies Arch is honest.
     
    #11 Rippon, Jun 29, 2014
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If you say so.
     
    #12 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Don't bother. He is ignorant, but his ignorance is willful, and he will not repent. He has stated the lie and he will continue to tell the same lie. He knows that Calvinists don't believe God ordains all things, but the truth means nothing to him. :(
     
    #13 TCassidy, Jun 29, 2014
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    And your point is???????? That's right, you don't have one.

    The Archangel
     
    #14 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2014
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If you are going to complain that your opponents do not understand the difference between something being decreed and ordained, then you really should define that for your opponents.

    After all, Calvinism is KNOWN for redefining words. You may not like that, but it is absolutely true. I have posted a famous "Calvinist dictionary" several times here at BB.

    I will ask you this, if God has ordained something, can it happen any other way?

    Yes or no?
     
    #15 Winman, Jun 29, 2014
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I have taken the quote from one of your own, Icon. Maybe if you guys would agree among yourselves on these points then you would not get so upset when one of you gets quoted.
     
    #16 steaver, Jun 29, 2014
  17. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76 Well-Known Member
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    Please, someone tell me the difference between DECREED and ORDAINED. I'm asking for folks to stick to debating/discussing the topic and please refrain from personal attacks. I'd like to learn something new....I don't need to know how to insult (I'm already quite good at that).
     
    #17 Jkdbuck76, Jun 29, 2014
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Winman has joined the banned. His tune was off-key anyway.
     
    #18 Rippon, Jun 29, 2014
  19. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76 Well-Known Member
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    Banned? For how long?
     
    #19 Jkdbuck76, Jun 29, 2014
  20. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Anybody know why Winman got banned? Is bad manners a banning offense now?
     
    #20 Zenas, Jun 29, 2014
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