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Evolution/Creation Poll -- Please Vote!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Phillip, Dec 27, 2004.

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  1. 6 day Creation -- Genesis is literal

    77.1%
  2. Gap or Old Earth, but no death until sin occurred

    8.3%
  3. Old Earth with death before sin occurred

    11.5%
  4. Theistic Evolution -- animals evolved until God decided to put a soul in one.

    3.1%
  5. Evolution -- absolutely no need for any supernatural causes.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. lchemist

    lchemist Member
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    That was not God's Word but one from your own (wacky)book of theories. [​IMG]

    Blessings,

    Luis
     
  2. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    Preach it Dr. Bob ! Amen!
    Phillip you are a funny guy.
     
  3. lchemist

    lchemist Member
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    Gracias, Guero.

    Luis
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    If death is an enemy and is a result of sin, then it is inconsistent to believe that God created death along with creation and called it "good."
     
  5. lchemist

    lchemist Member
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    Why is that? Death is an enemy for humans.

    I do not see anything in the Scriptures that precludes death as a natural process, for humans not to die they should have to renain sinless and with access to the tree of life.

    And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
    Gen 3:22

    Blessings

    Luis
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Luis, while I see what you are saying, there is still no indication in the Bible that death existed at all before sin. Death is an enemy for humans and for the earth -- subjecting the earth to decay is an indication of death.

    Death as "natural" in not a biblical view. It's only "natural" in a fallen world.

    If you think death is natural and existed before man's sin, then you must think there will be death in the new heaven and earth as well. Why not, if it's natural and God created the world with it?
     
  7. Anleifr

    Anleifr New Member

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    Naturally. My question is whether these are natural or supernatural. When God performs a miracle is he breaking the laws of his universe in doing so or simply performing within the bounds of the established order of his creation but at a level so high that it appears to humans to be breaking the laws of the universe?

    Well, don’t assume the new heaven and the new earth will be like the old heaven and old earth.

    In Genesis 3:22, Lord God says of the man, “lest he stretch out his had, and take also from the tree of life and live forever.” I interpret this to mean that man would have died unless he had had access to the tree of life. Only with access to the tree of life can man live forever. Man was not created immortal. Jesus, as man, wasn’t. When man sinned he could have continued living forever if he continued to have access to the tree of life as the above verse seems to indicate. But Lord God sent man out of the garden and barred him from the tree of life. Now look at another apocalyptic verse in Revelation 22:2: “and on either side of the river was the tree of life.” And Rev. 22:19: “and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life …” Here appears the tree of life in the new creation. Man must have access to the tree of life to live forever. If he sins, then God will take away his access to the tree and he will die.

    The blessing of salvation is not that man will not die. Obviously we do. The blessing is that God will resurrect us in the end. When we die we return to the ground from which we came. Animals return to the ground from which they came. There we will lie for however long it takes. But in the end, God will resurrect us as He did Christ who was the first fruits of the resurrection.
     
  8. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    6 day creation here, too!

    The Word spoke the word!!

    Death is not a "natural" part of the world!

    Death is a promised curse by God upon man---"The day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die!"
     
  9. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Actually, Wayne, my first question is intended to be that very answer. Creation took place in 6 days with God using the 7th to rest. YEC. Sorry, if that was confusing, but that was the intention. Is that what you meant?
     
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Remember, another clue to the death puzzle is the fact that animals ate only plant life. It was not "yet" a dog-eat-dog world of survival of the fittest. Plants, although alive based on the fact that they reproduce and grow utilizing surrounding elements, were obviously not considered the same as animal life.

    Not until after man fell to sin did animal life become a food to both man and beast.

    The bottom line is that we either have to accept Genesis as a true story, (six day creation, 1 day of rest), the list of relatives all of the way from Adam to Jesus, or we believe it is an allegory in which we might as well accept the gospels as allegory also. Without Genesis 1-11, we do not need the rest of the Bible.

    It is NOT just a matter of interpretation, otherwise, other Old Testament writers and New Testament writers, including Jesus would not have told the story in the Genesis format.

    FYI, this is one of the reasons the SBC had to clean out its universities of professors who started allegorizing not only Genesis, but the Virgin Birth of Mary. When you start down that path, you do not end until it all goes away.

    IMHO you cannot straddle the fence.
     
  11. lchemist

    lchemist Member
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    I find your post really amusing.

    All the biological kingdoms are alive, not only "Animalia." Your division between plant life and animal life is totally unwarranted.

    That is your idea; the bible is silent on this issue.

    You are right in your last statement, and wrong in the rest, Genesis 1-11 is TRUE, but it does not mean it is necessarily historical.

    It is a matter of interpretation, in which we should take into consideration the intertextuality of the Biblical canon.

    So do you like the thought police?
    The inquisition among the SBC is one of the effects of the fundamentalist takeover of the denomination. May God shed His grace on the SBC!
    That slippery slope argument, it is not necessarily true. It is not about what happened, but about what I think could one day happen.

    But you can always straddle the horse.

    Blessings,

    Luis
     
  12. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ask God why He selected animals to eat plants and not animals. Have you read your Bible?

    That is your idea; the bible is silent on this issue.


    okaaaaaay. . . "It is TRUE, but this doesn't mean it is "historical". HAHAHAHAHA

    So, then the gospels are rhetorical and open to interpretation? Would you like to try your hand at your interpretation based on the consideration of the intertextuality of the Biblical canon. Whatever that diatribe means?



    I have no idea what you are talking about, but you can call it "fundamentalist" takeover or what you want, but the bottom line is that our colleges were so blatantly liberal that they certinly needed a good house-cleaning; and that is exactly what happened. Whether everything is perfect or not, is definitely another story, but I can say the situation is better than it was. Obviously, more people in the SBC though "fundamentalism" is better than "liberalism". You can call it what you want---I'll call it a conservative ressurgence.

    Again, do you wish to explain yourself?

    By the way, you see the results of the poll. Do you think everybody who posts here are a bunch of idiots without education or experience? Obviously, I guess in your opinion 90% of us haven't "seen the light".

    Sorry, friend, but I call liberalism in Biblical interpretion like I see it and I certainly don't think Jesus lied when He created everything in six days.

    Exactly why do you think this is rhetorical anyway? Will your science not fit your Bible? Or does your Bible not fit your science?

    So, what exactly do you believe? Man came from a single cell--millions of years past? When did man get his soul? Do you think God is NOT capable of creating the universe in six days?

    Why are you so dead set that Gen. 1-11 is not historical?

    Sorry, if I sound argumentative, but this is debate site and that's what we do here.

    Blessings,

    Luis
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  13. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Obviously, God would not have said this:

    Gen 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"ESV

    If man was not intended to live forever; however, in your belief, many of these pre-man creatures if you truly believe in evolution had to die. So, what happened, did this one man all of a sudden get a soul after God thought he became good enough through trial and error (or whatever). Oh, yeah, this never happened becuse Genesis 1-11 is allegory. So, what DID happen? and why would God lie about it? You say it is just interpretation, so interpret this:

    Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
    ESV
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Ichemist/Luis, you still have not answered this question.
     
  15. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Good point, Marcia, I anxiously await their answer.
     
  16. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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  17. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Oh, and let's not forget that you said it is a matter of interpretation. Would you please interpret this chapter for us?

    Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
    Gen 5:2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.
    Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
    Gen 5:4 The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:5 Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he fathered Enosh.
    Gen 5:7 Seth lived after he fathered Enosh 807 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:8 Thus all the days of Seth were 912 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he fathered Kenan.
    Gen 5:10 Enosh lived after he fathered Kenan 815 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:11 Thus all the days of Enosh were 905 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he fathered Mahalalel.
    Gen 5:13 Kenan lived after he fathered Mahalalel 840 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:14 Thus all the days of Kenan were 910 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he fathered Jared.
    Gen 5:16 Mahalalel lived after he fathered Jared 830 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:17 Thus all the days of Mahalalel were 895 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:18 When Jared had lived 162 years he fathered Enoch.
    Gen 5:19 Jared lived after he fathered Enoch 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:20 Thus all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he fathered Methuselah.
    Gen 5:22 Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years.
    Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
    Gen 5:25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he fathered Lamech.
    Gen 5:26 Methuselah lived after he fathered Lamech 782 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:27 Thus all the days of Methuselah were 969 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he fathered a son
    Gen 5:29 and called his name Noah, saying, "Out of the ground that the LORD has cursed this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands."
    Gen 5:30 Lamech lived after he fathered Noah 595 years and had other sons and daughters.
    Gen 5:31 Thus all the days of Lamech were 777 years, and he died.
    Gen 5:32 After Noah was 500 years old, Noah fathered Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
    ESV

    Either God is a great liar or this is a great historical account. I accept the later.

    Like I said before, if you cannot accept something as literal as this, then why bother with the gospels?
     
  18. lchemist

    lchemist Member
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    I agree with you, the bible is silent either way, your interpretation of decay as indication of death is possible, but it is not clearly spelled in the biblical text.

    [/QB][/QUOTE]
    Death as "natural" in not a biblical view. It's only "natural" in a fallen world.

    If you think death is natural and existed before man's sin, then you must think there will be death in the new heaven and earth as well. Why not, if it's natural and God created the world with it? [/QB][/QUOTE]

    That has an easy answer, because "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Rev 21:4.

    Blessings,

    Luis
     
  19. lchemist

    lchemist Member
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    You said it a curse by God upon MEN.

    In Him,

    Luis
     
  20. lchemist

    lchemist Member
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    Remember what you said "Another clue to the death puzzle is the fact that animals ate only plant life"

    This is only a clue to what you recognize as a puzzle.

    While it is true that Genesis 1: 29-30 says: "Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

    And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food. And it was so."

    It doesn't necessarily prevent the existence of carnivorous animals. In order to be so, you will have to conclude that, for example, the lions eat plants before Adam's transgression, with no biblical support to such impressive mutation.

    I do not see that as a laughable statement, if you are a Christian you will have to admit that Gen 1 - 11 is TRUE and inspired by God. Another issue is its literary genre.




    I am not quite sure what are you trying to say, but we are not debating about the Gospels in this thread.



    I do not now anything about the colleges so I cannot comment, but this house-cleaning sounds like censorship to me, which is an anti-baptist position.



    Obviously not, my own brother is YEC, you are just defending what you have been taught to be the right biblical position.

    I do not have my own science.

    God is capable of creating the Universe in a second if he so wishes.

    I am not dead set on it, I may be proven wrong, but as I see it, the evidence points to a non-historical reading of Gen 1-11.

    That's OK.

    Blessings,

    Luis
     
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