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Exodus 20:16

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Feb 6, 2002.

  1. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Sorry Disciple, doesn't work, my post still stands.

    UNP
    Adam
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Bearing false witness:

    Part of the problem is with the RCC Double-Speak.

    For instance, concerning the Real Presence.

    It looks like bread and wine.
    It smells like bread and wine.
    It tastes like bread and wine.

    but the RCC says it is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

    It is not the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

    Have I given a false witness or has the RCC?


    HankD
     
  3. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
    Bearing false witness:

    Part of the problem is with the RCC Double-Speak.

    For instance, concerning the Real Presence.

    It looks like bread and wine.
    It smells like bread and wine.
    It tastes like bread and wine.

    but the RCC says it is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

    It is not the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

    Have I given a false witness or has the RCC?


    HankD
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't know, perhaps I did not frame my questions well in the opening post to this thread.

    I seems that you do not understand what I wish to discuss. Could you address the question directly as I have posed it?

    Do we violate the spirit or the letter of this commandment when we:

    Repeat rumor?
    Quote out of context?
    Make rash judgement?
    Flatter excessively?
    Boast?

    If we are guilty of bearing false witness, do we have a duty of reparation?

    Thanks
    Ron [​IMG]

    [ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear T2U,

    I understand completely what you mean and I believe what I said bears directly upon what you have asked.

    For Instance:
    I have been accused of being a false witness when I once said that Roman Catholics worshipped idols, after which I posted URLs with some Catholics bowing before statues in the position of prayer, while others were kneeling and weeping and touching the statues.

    I say it is worship and to me it is a form of idolatry.

    When I call it what my eyes see and what my heart and mind says it is, I am accused of false witness because the RCC plays this double-speak word game and calls it hyper-dulia which is something less than the worship (latria) due only to God.

    Another case: When you worship the eucharistic host you are committing idolatry.

    Now is that sentence a false witness on my part or not?

    Who is the actual false witness? Me or the worshipper? Or the one accusing of false witness?

    There is one who knows for sure and He is the judge of all of us.

    The point is this : if we don't conform exactly to the double-speak (which is in my mind a form of false witness) then we are (or at least I have been) accused directly or by innuendo of being the false witness.

    HankD
     
  5. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
    Dear T2U,

    I understand completely what you mean and I believe what I said bears directly upon what you have asked.

    For Instance:
    I have been accused of being a false witness when I once said that Roman Catholics worshipped idols, after which I posted URLs with some Catholics bowing before statues in the position of prayer, while others were kneeling and weeping and touching the statues.

    I say it is worship and to me it is a form of idolatry.

    When I call it what my eyes see and what my heart and mind says it is, I am accused of false witness because the RCC plays this double-speak word game and calls it hyper-dulia which is something less than the worship (latria) due only to God.

    Another case: When you worship the eucharistic host you are committing idolatry.

    Now is that sentence a false witness on my part or not?

    Who is the actual false witness? Me or the worshipper? Or the one accusing of false witness?

    There is one who knows for sure and He is the judge of all of us.

    The point is this : if we don't conform exactly to the double-speak (which is in my mind a form of false witness) then we are (or at least I have been) accused directly or by innuendo of being the false witness.

    HankD
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hank, I think that we may be talking about different things.

    &gt;&gt;I have been accused of being a false witness when I once said that Roman Catholics worshipped idols...

    I say it is worship and to me it is a form of idolatry.&lt;&lt;

    Let's talk about what you seem to be saying first. In order to draw a conclusion that someone worships something, we need knowledge of inner intent. Our knowldge of the inner intent of another person is difficult to know, wven with pictures. You would agree that a truer statement would be something along the lines of, "It looks to me like... ". I have little doubt that you would agree with me on that point.

    But that is not the sort of "false witness" that I am speaking of in this thread. I am talking about making statements based on nothing more than hearsay, deliberate parphasing, or removing from context so as to change the meaning.

    If one heard somewhere that "Joe Smith did such and such", absent any real knowledge, is one free to repeat it as truth? Is merely hearing something a defense against bearing false witness?

    Think of it this way. If you are not a witness to a fact situation, what sort of testimony can you offer? Either none, a qualified testimony (ie. I don't know for sure, but I heard...), or a false testimony.

    Lacking knowledge, an unqualified witness can only be false witness.

    This takes on a greater seriousness when the false witness is scandalous. When talking about the faith and beliefs of others, it is very easy to slip into the area of scandal. By that I maean it is easy to harm the reputation of others.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    I see. You think that our judgements of Catholic dogma fall under "bearing false witness."

    I have certainly heard many unqualified individuals comment on what Catholics believe, and think if all they know is what someone else told them they ought to clam up.

    But one offering his informed opinion about this or that dogma is not bearing false witness.
     
  7. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    I see. You think that our judgements of Catholic dogma fall under "bearing false witness."

    I have certainly heard many unqualified individuals comment on what Catholics believe, and think if all they know is what someone else told them they ought to clam up.

    But one offering his informed opinion about this or that dogma is not bearing false witness.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Aaron, read though the posts written on this thread by me, a please let me know where I have made the above claim?

    That is not what I have said at all. I have attempted to be very direct and very clear as to what I am addressing here.

    Please, show me from my words.

    Ron [​IMG]
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear T2U,


    Yes, I agree with the last post you addressed to me.

    Knowingly twisting or spinning the truth as we see it to be truth in our heart in order to denegrate another is bearing false witness.

    Nevertheless, I felt my point needed to be made since I believe you have unwittingly been guilty of claiming a "false witness" when none was knowingly being made.

    However, I can not know for sure the intent of yours or anyone's heart for the following reasons :

    Only God can see the heart.

    1 Samuel 16b ...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


    Out hearts can be desperately self-deceived.

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    At one time or another we all commit the offenses of which you speak thereby clouding our ability to see clearly:

    Douay-Rheims
    James 3:2 For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man. He is able also with a bridle to lead about the whole body.

    There is a conflict of interest at least for me. I cannot say the things I want to say to Roman Catholics without offending them.
    But I want them to be the best Christians (in my perception) that they can be.


    HankD
     
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:


    Nevertheless, I felt my point needed to be made since I believe you have unwittingly been guilty of claiming a "false witness" when none was knowingly being made.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not following you on this. Could you be more specific?

    Ron [​IMG]
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear Ron,

    You have in the past implied a false witness on my part when I honestly and to the best of my ability of self-examination did not do so. Although I must admit that later you did say that I may not have realized it.

    Not realizing that one has made a "false witness" causes one not to be a false witness but mistaken.

    I believe that an accusation of false witness is as grave a matter as the false witness itself (if there had indeed been one). Frankly, your cause of promoting or defending RCC dogma would be better served if you said "you are mistaken" rather than
    a direct or oblique accusation of false witness. But that is my opinion. That and $1.00 will get you the proverbial cup of coffee.


    HankD
     
  11. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
    Dear Ron,

    Not realizing that one has made a "false witness" causes one not to be a false witness but mistaken.


    HankD
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Agreed, with qualifications.

    Let's talk about this outside of a matter of dogma, since that was my intent when I started this discussion.

    Do you agree that one has an obligation to learn to the best of one's ability the truth of a matter before repeating it to another?

    If one does not attempt to ascertain the truth of the matter before bearing witness, is such a lack of knowledge a valid defense?
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:


    Aaron, read though the posts written on this thread by me, a please let me know where I have made the above claim?

    That is not what I have said at all. I have attempted to be very direct and very clear as to what I am addressing here.

    Please, show me from my words.

    Ron [​IMG]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I didn't get it from your words. I got it from what others have posted. That explains why folks at the beginning were reticent to answer you directly. Perhaps they've been burned before?
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear Ron,

    You wrote...

    &lt;&lt;Let's talk about this outside of a matter of dogma, since that was my intent when I started this discussion. Do you agree that one has an obligation to learn to the best of one's ability the truth of a matter before repeating it to another? If one does not attempt to ascertain the truth of the matter before bearing witness, is such a lack of knowledge a valid defense?&gt;&gt;

    "to the best of one's ability..."

    This is so subjective that it is almost impossible to define what this means except on a case by case basis.

    "lack of knowledge...a valid defense"

    Again this is subjective. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Slander is primarily based upon the intent to denigrate although the lack of knowledge is a factor (IMO).

    HankD
     
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:


    I didn't get it from your words. I got it from what others have posted. That explains why folks at the beginning were reticent to answer you directly. Perhaps they've been burned before?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So you took a characterization of my words by others over your own reading of them?

    And four pages into this thread, as I have maintained a consistent attitude and position on "false witness" as I presented it in the originating post, you still are suspect of my intent?

    And you have no personal experience to judge your assumption that others have been "burned before"?

    Would a respect for truth require avoiding rash judgement of others?
     
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