Explain these verses....

Next?

Back it up there, Brian.

You still need to explain how one can "escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" and not be saved.

What does that phrase mean then? </font>[/QUOTE]

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
No matter how much evidence Brian or anyone else would present to you, your mind is made up not to believe. That is what you have just said. "No amount of debate or explanation is going to ever convince me." If Jesus Christ would personally confront you, you still would not believe. That was the basic message of Abraham to the rich man in Hell.

2Pet.2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

The chapter is talking of false teachers, false prophets, and their damnable heresies: (verse 1)
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

It also speaks of the false teachers followers: (verse 2)
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;

It speaks of the effect that they will have on believers: (verse 3)
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:

Verses 7-8 uses Lot as an example of one who was vexed with the "pollutions of this world," and yet in God's sight he was called "a just man." This is one possible explanation of the verse in question.
Lot was saved. He was made righteous by his belief in the God of Abraham. He never lost that belief in spite of his wicked life. The Bible calls him "a just man."

Every believer becomes tainted with the pollutions of this world at one time or another. We live in an ungodly world. We don't remain perfect, but:
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

From verses 10 to 19 a very vivid description is given of these false teachers and especially of their wicked and ungodly activities.
For example:
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
--I think of the Swiss air-liner that crashed just off Peggy's Cove near Newfoundland about three years ago killing about three hundred people, most of whom were Americans. When a memorial service was held, different ones prayed and said some parting words. Our "Catholic" prime minister, Jean Chretien, gave orders that the Christian representatives, a Catholic and one other, do not use the name of Christ under any circumstance. He didn't want to offend other cultures. Our government is filled with corruption, cares not about God, speaks evil. They have changed the meaning of marriage to include homosexuals. I could go on. This is the result of false teachers pushing their agenda.

Now we come to verses 20 to 22. There are only two possible interpretations here. One is that they refer to people like Lot, already mentioned: polluted by this world, but still just.
The other explanation is that these are the victims of the false teachers. They are people who had reformed but had not been born again. Through a partial knowledge of Christ and of Christianity they had turned from a life of sin and begun a moral lifestyle.
Then they came under the incluence of false teachers who mock purity, virtue, morality. They become involved again in the very sins from which they had been temporarily delivered. They even sink lower than before. This often happens to alcoholics and drug addicts when trying to reform. The seccond time is worse than the first if they fail.
The illustration that Peter uses is a dog returning to his vomit (his old ways, his old sin). Interestingly enough a dog is considered to be an unclean animal. They were unclean before they were "reformed," and they remain unclean aferward. They were never saved in the first place.
I hope that helps some.
DHK

 

It occurs to me that one of the false teachings referred to here is OSAS.

Such a believer could slip back into the "pollutions of the world" (grievious sin) and in deed be worse off than they were before.

How? They would be on the road to eternal damnation all the while convinced that no amount of sin was going to matter because they are "saved".

Such a deluded sinner would feel no need for future repentance.

BTW, DHK, I stand by my previous statement. No amount of debate is going to convince me that your new doctrine, unheard of before the Reformation, is correct, and that all the Early Church Fathers, who learned at the feet of the Apostles, got it all wrong.

Perhaps you could be debated into believing that the Mormons or Jehova Witnesses are correct?

 

Ron, Haven't you always said that God reveals doctrine over time? Not that it changes but that it is revealed by God at the right time to the right people, probably a pope?. If it is true that NO Christians believed OSAS until the reformation, could it just be that God waited to reveal that doctrine? Isn't that the very thing that you say when we look at the history of the CC and the things that have changed, evolved, etc...

Now, on the other hand I believe the Bible is clear on OSAS and so it was being taught right from the get go. Perhaps some popular early Christian thinkers got it wrong. Lets face it Corinth was a mess by 50AD and John finds fault in many of the early assemblies in Revelations. God has matured his people and I believe we understand better today then many in those early assemblies, and I think that is why Satan has fought so hard to seperate God's people. There is a song by Steve Green that says this:

"Let the walls come down,
let the walls come down.
Let the walls that divide us
and hide us come down.
If in Christ we agree,
let us seek unity.
Let the walls come down"

Thanks DHK for your interpretation of the verses.

Ron, should we stay on these verses for a while yet? or move to the next set.

In Christ,
Brian

[ September 30, 2003, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Sure, our understanding of doctrine grows, but our new understanding should not directly contradict all previous understanding.

If the church got it all wrong within the first 50 years as you say, that doesn't speak to well of the teachings of the Apostles or Scripture now does it?

Do you really believe that all of Christianity was wrong for 1,500 years and then suddenly a light went on and someone correctly came up with OSAS?

Are you saying that it was taught from the start, even though all historical evidence is to the contrary? What basis could you have for believing this?

I would like to stay with this for now.

Not only is "after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" saying that they are saved (your point of reference)...

but also "they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" also contradicts OSAS.

According to OSAS, being "again entangled" doesn't effect your salvation. No sin can unsave you, right?

Ron

 

Read my post carefully Ron. Though some may use it either as a proof text agaisnt OSAS, or for it, it does not necessarily teach it. I tend to agree with you that it does not support OSAS. It has nothing to do with OSAS. A dog returns to his own vomit. But then what it a dog, and why did Peter use that illustration?
DHK