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Featured Expository note on John 6:37-45

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Dec 4, 2014.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME

    Understanding the biblical concept of the phrase “all that the Father gives Me” requires careful study of several passages of scripture. First lets look at John 6.

    In verse 37, Jesus says (NASB) “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” This verse says if a person is given to Christ, it results in salvation 100% of the time; all given come and are not cast out. Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

    In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day.

    Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    In verse 45, Jesus says (NASB) “It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.”
    So everyone who comes to Jesus must first have heard of God, which I think refers to hearing the gospel message. Then, everyone that comes to Jesus must have learned of God from God’s message. I think this learning refers to accepting and trusting in Christ.

    Putting all three verses from John 6 together we get, (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    So based on these verses from John 6 we have a working hypothesis of the meaning of the phrase, “all that the Father gives to Me.”

    In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed. If God hardens a person’s heart, like Judas in this passage, then it has not been granted to come to Jesus. Judas certainly heard the message but just as certainly did not learn from it and put his faith in Christ. So it appears to me that this verse is consistent with my working hypothesis.

    In John 12:32, Jesus says (NASB) “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Christ crucified is the center of the gospel message, so this is somewhat consistent with the working hypothesis. However, to fit, I must understand “all men” to refer to all men who have heard and understood the gospel, because the message of Christ being “lifted up” would not it seems to me to draw folks who either did not hear or understand the gospel. In Matthew 13, the parable of the four soils, Jesus explains that some people have hardened themselves, rather than being hardened by God for His purpose such as Judas or Pharaoh, and it appears to me that those who have hardened their heart to the degree they cannot understand the gospel, will not be drawn by the gospel, Matt. 13:19. Clearly my understanding requires a difference between being drawn to Jesus (John 12:32) and coming to Jesus (John 6:37; 44 and 45).

    In order to accept this view as consistent with all scripture, one must accept that to be drawn means understanding a persuasive argument and accepting it to some degree, although not necessarily making a full commitment, i.e. the other soils of Matthew 13.
    An alternate view, which I think mistaken, is to view draw as meaning to be compelled irresistibly. Matthew 13 clearly indicated folks could be attracted to the gospel, i.e. receive it with joy, and yet not believe from the heart or with all their heart.

    In John 10:29 (NASB) Jesus says, “My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” First, the “them” refers back to verse 28 and to the ones Christ gives eternal life. In verse 28 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His (Christ’s) hand and in verse 29 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of His Father’s hand. Thus when we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are in both the Father’s and the Son’s hand, saved forever. To make this clear, Jesus says, (verse 30) “I and My Father are one.” This verse, too, is consistent with the working hypothesis.

    In John 17:4 we see that God gives other things to Christ, in this case His work to accomplish, and so we need to look at context to verify that people are being given to Christ for the purpose of their salvation, as opposed to something or someone being given to Christ for some other purpose.

    In John 17:6 we see that the Father has given some individuals to Christ, but the purpose was for them to receive the words God had given to Christ (verse 8). We see that these men were given to Christ out of the world, so out of the “kosmos of man” God gave these to Christ for a purpose. These men believed God had sent Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah.

    In verses 9 – 12 we see that Jesus asks in behalf of these men, His disciples, for God to keep them in His name, indicating they were believers and Jesus is asking God to protect their faith, sanctify them in truth so to speak. Jesus says not one of them perished, but the son of Perdition, again indicating these were not given for the purpose of salvation. Jesus then says, verse 20, that He is not asking in behalf of the disciples only, but also for those who will believe in Christ through the message Christ gave them from God.

    In John 17:24 (NASB) Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.” This also refers to Christ’s disciples given to Christ for the purpose of passing on the gospel to the world. To be with Me, again refers to being with Christ as a faithful servant, rather than apart from Christ spreading less than the pure gospel.

    If we back up a bit and return to verse 17:6, we see that in these verses, the Father is giving to the Son people who belong to the Father. This begs the question, in what way did the disciples belong to the Father before they were given to the Son. All but Judas were “of God” meaning under the influence of God, looking for the Messiah, trusting in God’s word (Old Testament revelation). From this I conclude Jesus is referring to the eleven, Jesus was not praying in behalf of Judas, and therefore Jesus is saying they belonged to God because they believed in God and were committed to following God as best they knew how.

    1 John 5:1 says (NASB), “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present has been born of God in the past. It is God who determines whether or not a person “believes” (Romans 4:5). John 1:12-13 says whoever believes in Christ is given by God the right to become children of God, born by the will of God. So if we put those three verses together we get (3) God gives 100% of those whose faith He credits as righteous to Christ, and (5) everyone that arrives in Christ in this manner is then born again by the will of God and saved forever

    In John 3:3 scripture teaches we must have been born again to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:5 scripture teaches we must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

    In summary, I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

    Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election unto salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No one has made that claim that John 6:37 reads that way. You are totally ignoring the claims that have been made for John 6:37-39 simply because you HAVE NO ANSWERS! Again, you are ignoring the evidence placed right before you eyes and changing the subject to something NO ONE has ever claimed! Why create straw men that do not exist. I have repeatedly said that beng "given' PRECEDES being drawn and thus I would never say that drawing is the cause of being given to Jesus.



    Again, you ignore the evidence placed before you and make an assumption you cannot show from the text.

    First, you reverse the order by placing drawn before given in your statement above. Read the text and start with the Biblical order which is "given" before "drawn."

    Moreover, this "given" is PRIOR TO THE INCARNATION - v. 38 and thus LONG BEFORE any are being drawn.

    If you can't even read it right you have no basis to chide others.

    Again, you contradict the hard contextual based facts. There is NOT ONE USE of the Greek term translated "draw" where coming is not SIMELTANEOUS with the act of drawing - NOT ONE! So your claim is what is fallacious. Your claim is like saying, "pay no attention to the logical fallacy that eating means to eat."



    This is irrational! Coming has no meaning if something is not in the act of coming! Just common sense.

    Nobody said that! Come does not mean given, but come is the consequence of being given or don't you understand the FUTURE TENSE "shall come" is a future action to the present tense "given" (v. 37). Don't you understand that being "given" PRECEDES the incarnation and the incarnation is presented as a CONSEQUENCE of that action of being given (v. 38).

    Those who are able to read simple English should be able to see clearly you are directly contradicting the very Word of God here.


    No, given does not mean drawn but drawn is the consequence of being given as given and drawn are both grammatically and contextually presented as the CAUSES for coming.

    1. Given in verse 37 PRECEDES coming ("shall" come) and is the ONLY textual cause given for that future action.

    2. Given in verse 38 PRECEDES the coming of Christ to earth as well as the coming "of all" given in coming to Christ by faith.

    3. Drawn PRECEDES coming to Christ equally as being given PRECEDES coming to Christ (vv. 37-38, 44).

    Again, you don't know what you are talking about because you are ignoring sound exegetical facts glaring at you in the context.


    You are the only one failing to practice what you are preaching here. For example the Greek term "draw" is ALWAYS found in the PASSIVE VOICE denying inherent ability to come to Christ just as Christ says "No man CAN come". No inherent ability/power to come to Christ. That power comes from God drawing and that drawing is not inclusive of inherent cooperation or ability as it is PASSIVE VOICE.

    For example, the Greek term "draw" is ALWAYS effectual as it is ALWAYS simeltaneous with the action of drawing. Drawing EQUALS coming to Christ. You cannot find anywhere in Scripture where what is being drawn is not coming at one and the same instance. YOu cannot use the fisherman and the nets because that is due only to inability in the drawer and God has no such inability.



    This is as rational as saying "if you see the prior statement edited to read, eating means to eat, pay not attention to a poster...." This is so irrational that just common sense is sufficient to see it is a silly statement.

    You provide NOTHING here but your own OPINION based upon NOT A SINGLE SOLITARY contextual based or exegetical based fact - Period!
     
    #42 The Biblicist, Dec 6, 2014
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  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is a straw man of your own imagination! NEVER have I ever said that drawing precedes being given. In fact, I have repeatedly said that being given precedes not only coming to Christ but precedes Christ coming to this world (v. 38). So why create a straw man argument?

    Second, you have no contextual or exegetical basis for saying "either simeltaneous....or after they are given" as Christ uses the FUTURE TENSE ONLY "shall" come in regard to being given. There is no option given or possible in this context as the same act of being given PRECEDES THE INCARNATION and so must precede the actual coming to Christ "of all" those given.[/QUOTE]
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Try reading the text and choose to accept the words given. He is asserting UNIVERSAL ("no man") INABILITY ("can come"). He is denying INHERENT ABILITY to come to Christ. If that is not true, then why the EXCEPTION clause which follows????? The exception clause proves that the ability to come to Christ is in "NO MAN" but only in God's drawing.

    Secondly, the term "draw" is PASSIVE VOICE proving that "NO MAN" cooperates/participates in the DRAWING ACTION but it is WHOLLY OF GOD's power.

    Thirdly, the term "draw" is inseparable from the act of coming as what is drawn comes because it is being drawn. This is a FACT found in EVERY USE of the term. Coming is the EFFECTUAL consequence of drawing as the CAUSE. Again, you cannot use the fisherman and the net to overthrow this fact because it is the inability found in the fisherman that prevents the coming of the fish and God has no such inability.

    Fourth, the very same text is repeated in John 6:65 just for YOU and YOUR false interpetation. There are "SOME" who are in "unbelief" and have remained so "FROM THE BEGINNING" (v. 64) and the sole cause given for that condition is that the Father NEVER drew them - v. 65 or don't you understand the meaning of the words "THEREFORE I SAID UNTO YOU"?????
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Nowhere does Jesus say "SOME or ALL" drawn are given to Christ. That is eisegesis on your part that has nothing in the text to support it. Indeed, he does use the term "some" in direct connection with this same statement in verses 63-66 but in order to prove your theory is absolutely false. There are "some" disciples in "unbelief" and were so "from the beginning" and the only textual cause for that condition is given by Christ in verse 65 -"THEREFORE I SAID UNTO YOU" meaning the Father NEVER drew them, thus never gave them, thus they never came to faith in Christ EXCEPT BY FALSE PROFESSION.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are certainly free to "think" what you please but you are not free to your own facts when what you "think" is contrary to the evidence.

    First, the text says that "ALL" shall be taught of God not "SOME" shall be.

    Second, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be taught by anyone without BOTH having heard the teacher and having learned from the teacher or NOTHING IS TAUGHT.

    Third, Jesus has TWO or more prophets in mind when paraphrasing Isaiah 54:13 but also Jeremiah 31:33-34 both of which refer to "ALL" not "some" and have the NEW COVENANT in view and so the "ALL" in context refers to only those who actually come to Christ (Jer. 31:34).

    Fourth, both hearing and learning have to do with the INTERNAL part of "ALL" who are taught, as those in verses 36 and 63 EXTERNALLY heard and learned but remained in "unbelief."[/QUOTE]
     
    #46 The Biblicist, Dec 6, 2014
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  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    First, you have reversed the order as you start as number one "God draws" when the text starts with God having "given" and giving by context necessarily precedes coming, not merely because of the obvious FUTURE TENSE of "shall come" in relation to being given (v. 37) but because this act of given PRECEDED the incarnation and is the cause for Christ coming.

    Second, not a single verse ever says "SOME" of these but the very reverse that "some" are the product of NEVER HAVING BEEN DRAWN (vv. 63-65) and the result is they are still in "unbeleif" and have been so "from the beginning" of their profession as disciples.

    Third, giving credit is never once mentioned in this context. The context is about GIVING FAITH or GIVING that results in coming to Christ by faith which Jesus says "NO MAN CAN" and thus that is "THE WORK OF GOD" (v. 29) and that work is divided into two aspects "GIVEN" precedes coming and "DRAW" precedes coming and both are the CAUSES of coming, Whereas, you are teaching the very reverse based upon NOTHING but your own thoughts void of Biblical context or valid exegesis.

    Fourth, your eisgetical interpretation of coming as "arrival in Christ" is repudiated by the context. Verse 35 defines coming as the very same thing as believing in Christ, and verse 37-38 define coming as the consequence of first being GIVEN and verse 45 define coming as the consequence of first being DRAWN. There is no spiritual positional "arrival in Christ" until AFTER once COMES TO CHRIST IN FAITH.

    Again, your interpretations are based upon NOTHING but pure myth and fanciful thinking.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    AGain PURE IMAGINATION at work. Jesus has already made the UNIVERSAL assertion that "NO MAN" can come to Christ except being drawn by the Father and THAT IS THE REASON given by Christ why they are still in "unbelief" and have been so "from the beginning."

    However, you reject the reason given by Christ and invent your own. Hardening has not even been introduced into this text. Why not believe the reason Jesus gives? These "some" are in unbelief simply because the Father NEVER DREW THEM and thus it is FAITH that is not granted as coming to Christ is coming in faith to Christ and that is "THE WORK OF GOD" as the by product of first having been GIVEN to the Son and then DRAWN to the Son both of which are God's work ALONE!
    [/QUOTE]
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    First, you have to admit that "all men" does not mean "all men without exception, as it is obvious that "all men without exception" have not heard the gospel. Congratulations for at least denying the obvious.

    Second, you completely ignore the preceding context and the fact that this is part of Christ response to GREEKS wanting to meet with him which Jews avoided all SOCIAL activities with (Acts 10:23; Mt. 18:17).

    Third, the "all" must be interpreted with the more fuller PRECEDING explanation given of this doctrine in John 6:37-66 which means "all" refers to "all...of all" given to the Son by the Father, and "ALL" taught by the Father which is "everyone" that comes to Christ (v. 45) and which EXCLUDES "some" who did hear the gospel as NEVER BEEN DRAWN by the Father (vv. 64-65).

    None of the rest of your post has to do with the immediate context.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Van interprets "come to me" not as an progressive action of faith in Christ as the present tense demands, but rather the culminate act of being placed "in Christ" positional and thus an "arrival" rather than a progressive action.

    Hence, he ignores the Greek grammar and forces his interpretation upon the words.

    Second, he ignores that the act of coming to Christ is defined as one and the same as "believing on him" in verse 35 which precedes the discussion about "come to me". Therefore, he tosses the preceding Biblical explanation away and invents his own explanation.

    Third, in verse 35 the consequences of coming/believing is not POSITIONAL but rather experiential as the "hunger....thirst" is satisfied. It is the act of faith in Christ that satisfies his conscience, hope and fears. The POSITION is theological not experiential.

    Fourth, metaphorical partaking of Christ has been taken from the literal backdrop of literal partaking of bread and thus coming to Christ is one and the same as partaking of Christ as food (vv. 34-35). In verse 47-48 the same metaphorical analogy is defined as BELIEVING in him rather than ARRIVAL in Christ by position.

    Fifth, the application of verses 34-35 to the audiance is not that they had not "arrived in Christ positionally" but they had not "believed" - v 36

    So, Van's definiton of "come to me" as positional/spiritual arrival in Christ is pure myth and contrary to the definitons and analogies provided by the immediate context.
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, no one has dared directly address these THREE challenges set forth above. What Deacon and Van did was simply present their own interpretational model of John 6:35-65 while completely avoiding the challenges presented in my post.

    Again, is there anyone who will dare to directly address these THREE clear and explicit challenges?
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Eight posts of gibberish.

    1) If all that are given are drawn, and everyone given is saved, then all that are drawn were given. Thus the denial is gibberish.

    2) I am charged with ignoring evidence. The verse, John 6:37 is the evidence and I addressed its meaning. I did ignore efforts to redefine the meaning of words, so that draw means compel with irresistible grace. There is no evidence for that Calvinist invention.

    3) Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever. Thus people are drawn before they are given.

    4) The fact that no one can come to Jesus unless drawn is not in dispute, but there it is in the avalanche of non-germane verbiage.

    5)
    Pure fiction, with absolutely no verse that supports the fiction.

    6) Next, I am charged with say the Calvinist says drawing precedes coming. No, that would be the biblical order, for no one can come unless drawn.

    7)Second, the sequence seems clear, first if God gives someone they either simultaneously come to Christ or after they are given, they come to Christ, but clearly folks do not come to Christ before they are given.

    8) In verse 44, Jesus says (NASB) “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise Him up on the last day.” This verse says two things, no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him, and everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved, for Jesus will raise him up on the last day. Thus the idea of the ability to come to Jesus refers to the ability to be spiritually transferred into Christ. No person can do that.

    9) More non-germane verbiage, no one said "drawing" was done by a person, it is the Father that draws.

    10) Next, more non-germane, no one said some will be taught, I said all will be taught which refers to all those who both heard and learned.

    11) Next we get a repeat of the fiction, drawing = coming. Not what the words mean.

    12) I provided the sequence as necessitated by scripture. The logical fallacy is clear, scripture says all drawn can come, but does not say, all drawn do come (i.e. are spiritually transferred into Christ.

    13) Next, the Calvinist denies the lexiconal meaning of arriving for the Greek word "hexei" (G2240) which in the verse means "shall be arriving."

    14) In verse 65, Jesus says (NASB) “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.” If God has hardened the hearts of some, they will not understand the gospel and they will be unable to learn from it, is how I understand the verse - using “granted” to mean allowed.

    15) Lastly, the Calvinist claims come to me means believe in me, but this is not the meaning of John 6:37, because a change of location, not in Christ, to in Christ where they will not be cast out is in view.
     
  13. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Wow - I come back to look over this thread and see 3 more pages of posts since I last posted.

    I'm not exactly a quick thinker - I rather mull over things before posting.

    Biblicist, I'm still not convinced regarding your definition of "drawing", I see a softer use of the expression than I believe you do.

    You've given me quite a bit to study and meditate over - unfortunately Sunday Adult bible study demands more attention at this time,
    ...and when I do come back there will be still more to look over.

    Rob
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are a dishonest debater. I quote your arguments and deal directly with them so that the reader can compare what you say with what I say, so everything is up front. You don't quote my arguments with your response because it would expose your responses for what they really are - smoke and mirrors - with NO CONTEXTUAL BASIS whatsoever. You dare not quote my responses and then deal with them because you can't. Man up, and debate fairly so all can compare what your responses with my responses. I don't think you will debate with transparency because you are trying to hide behind already proven false arguments. Be honest enough to let the reader compare my arguments with your responses. I do that with you because I HAVE NOTHING TO COVER UP OR FEAR and I want to be transparent with the readers so they can easily compare and see whose arguments really have contextual substance.
     
    #54 The Biblicist, Dec 6, 2014
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  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I understand. Take your time. However, don't do like Van and fail to quote what I say and then respond to it. I quote what you say and then I respond to it so everything is up front.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see the Calvinist now has said I am a dishonest debater. This attack on me rather than my views is just another logical fallacy.

    Putting the two verses together, we get (1) God draws people, (2) some or all those drawn are given to Christ, (3) all those given in this manner come to Jesus, and (4) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever. Thus people are drawn before they are given.

    Lastly see where the Calvinist says "don't do like Van and fail to quote what I say...." See item #5 in post #52.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I simply said the truth as any reader can easily see you did not provide my responses to compare with yours. I could have simply responded to your posts by calling it "gibberish" and then just repeated my points. However, I showed you the respect to quote what you said and then provided detailed responses to every point. Any reader who has read my response knows they are not "gibberish" but clearly spelled out contextual based reasons that expose your arguments as false.

    You don't have the decency or the transparency to quote what my responses but simply call it a name and then repeat your points all over again. That is dishonesty and I think every honest reader will agree that it is simply a smear job rather than honest transparent debating.

    I am not going to bother responding to your posts until you deal with my response fairly and transparently.
     
    #57 The Biblicist, Dec 6, 2014
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  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The Biblicist

    .



    :thumbs: yes we see it...post after post....van is not up to it, someone throw in the towel and rescue van:wavey:
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Your logic is faulty. You have taken the verses out of order. In my post # 4 I gave the order as presented in Scripture:

    Even if the order were different your logic would still be faulty simply because of Verse 65!
     
  20. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    Nov 15, 2008
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    LOL! Can you even read Greek?
     
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