Extremes

I would wager to say that some folks feel convicted to give up certain types of behavior they feel isn't glorifying to God.

However, I would caution people to avoid decisions based on faulty legalistic thinking, for example...soda isn't pure, therefore, I am contaminating my body which is a temple to the Lord....if you truly came to that conclusion on your own, that's fine, as long as someone "helpful"from your fellowship isn't pumping your brain full of legalistic garble.

The old church I attended had a myriad of rules and regulations to make you more spiritual and in the end we saw through their extremes, they were merely used as control tactics to keep the flock in tow.

Use discernment, the Holy Spirit does convict us to do some things that are good for us, such as quitting smoking....just make sure it the Holy Spirit and not some legalistic garblegook spouted by control freaks.

 

Can someone please give me a good example of this legalism that is so weighing everyone down?
And please don't give examples of rules you were expected to obey in a school setting or the like.
What is an example of something you consider legalism and not scriptural, that is being put forth by your church and you're expected to follow, that is putting an unnecessary heavy burden that is too hard to bear on you?
Just wondering.
da Gina

 

Gina, excellent question! My answer, "absolutely nothing!" Separation is not a labor of law, it is a labor of love!

 

Well said Bro Cassidy AMEN!

 

Dr. Bob seems to have good grasp of the concept of excessive legalism, perhaps he can define it more clearly than I could and not get himself flamed in the process.

Excessive legalism is extremely damaging to the spirit and possibly even your mental well being. To those who don't believe it is real, you have not lived my experience of it. Judge not, lest ye be judged.

 

*raises hand in air* oh oh pick me pick me!...oh wait I don't have to raise my hand do i? *

The problem I see with some IFB churches (please note the word some) is that they get so caught up trying to follow every single rule that their ministries begin to hurt and they get a snobbish "i'm better than you are" attitude. And that is damaging and has often made me not even want to associate with some of them.

UNP
Adam

 

I agree, Adam.

When I was younger,and didn't really understand the differences between denominations, I applied to an IFB "college".

Among the things I had to do was sign a pledge that I would follow a strict dress code (which I didn't really have a problem with), cut my hair, lose the earring (lost it, anyway) quit listening to mainstream music, quit going to the picture shows (and, yes I do still call them that), quit playing cards, quit going to museums (?), promise not to see my girlfriend while I was there and a couple of other things.

I finally decided that if the length of my hair was more important than the condition of my heart, this obviously wasn't the school for me.

I went to visit the school to tell them that I had had a change of heart because of the pledges they wanted me to take.

The representative went berserk and started telling me that I was in rebellion against God and that I needed to get right with God and cut my hair.

My hair wasn't even that long (just over my collar), it was the principle of the thing that mattered to me.

What was so funny was that, while he was telling me how I was a terrible person for having long hair, just over his shoulder was a picture of Jesus - with long hair (and a beard, no less)!

That is legalism.

By the way, just to illustrate how whacked out these guys were, they once threw the band GLAD off campus for being too rowdy. GLAD - too rowdy???

http://www.keylife.org

 

As far as separation goes.... here goes..... again......

When you treat people whom you are trying to minister to as second class citizens ie, keep those trailer park kids away from OUR kids...what are you teaching those kids about Christ....is his love exclusionary? Separation needs to be understood in the proper context!!!! I have seen many, many, many abuses of it. If you are separating from the world to show how pious you/we are..there's a problemo!!!! If you do it out of personal conviction with the love of Christ always showing through your actions, NO PROBLEM MON!!!!

I have seen alot of doctrines taken to the extreme with extreme consequences.... you should want to lead people to Christ with your actions, not make it seem like Heaven is an exclusive country club with lots of dues and bylaws....Jesus paid it all folks!!!!!

 

Hi, I listen to a program called the White Horse Inn and it might help you out with this issue. Its on OnePlace.com. Anyway, Rod Kiddlebarger calls all these extra rules you are refering to as "house rules" Things you should and shouldnt do to be better christians. It seems like you have ran into a church with a major set of house rules. The problem with these are that they go beyond the Law that is in the Bible. To avoid the legalism trap one needs a good unerstanding of Law and Gospel. WE are called to follow the Law (eg. 10 commandments, other indicative statements in the OT and NT) but we cant acheive righteousness by doing that, though Jesus did that for us (Gospel). By God's grace in the imputation of righteousness by Christ's fulfilling the requirments of perfectly upholding the Law for us, we have freedom from the penatly of the Law. There is were we find our freedom which was bought for us by Christ. So then to have to follow other rules to be "better" christians is a gospel of works and not grace. Ill leave it up to you as to which rules are biblical law or not.

 

dfd,

I love the White Horse Inn. I listen to it over oneplace.com since they don't carry it in my area.

For anyone who doesn't know, you can also listen to about 100 other ministries on oneplace.com

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries

http://www.keylife.org

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Hey smoke eater,

this is WAY off topic, but im a firefighter also im Illinois

 

Thanks to all who offer definitions of legalism and a special thanks to Dr. Bob who can take any topic and give an objective scriptual answer regarding it, you are awesome sir!!!!

 

There is also a brand of legalism with a great deal of "plausible deniability"

"I didn't SAY you aren't saved if you do thus and so"

But if you objectively evaluate their statements, it is legalism hidden under the guise of "holy living"

They string together a group of unrelated premeses

- I don't think that wearing bow ties is consistent with Holy Living (I shudder at the thought, they are the spawn of Satan)

- Holiness is the mark of the true believer

Therefore: Dr. Bob cannot be a true believer

If you "continue in sin" by not follwing extraBiblical dreamed up rules, they assume you are at best a carnal christian, at worst, a wolf in sheeps clothing.

This is a Hasty Generalization by the way, so don't bother to call me on the carpet for a broad brush. I am talking about a subset here, the true pharisees of our day. This group of people usually are the second generation. They learned these "great truths" from some well meaning person who felt it their duty to straighten out the new christian, or the "used" one as Dr. Bob calls us

 

Hi TJCorn,

Do you remember how Paul struggled to maintain his recently planted church in Thessalonica. Those jealous folks falsely accused him of defying Caesar and of defending some other king. Why? Because as a Thessalonian Christian, patterning your life after Christ made you conspicously unconvential. That's trouble for you back in those days.
As a Thessalonian Christian you would constantly live under the microscope of "the conservatives"(Those people who continue to live traditional Roman lives). As a "liberal", how were you expected to live? How would you need to change your previous lifestyle in order to follow a Christian lifestyle? What do you have to give up? What habits do you have to pick up?

After being forced to leave Thessalonica, Paul wrote a brief, informative message about the extremes of Christian living in his first letter written for them. He knew that they would be pressured to live like extremists or to live a more moderated life. They needed an overlying principle to guide them and unify their individualistic approaches to distinctively living like a Christian. Here is what he wrote:

1 Thessalonians 4:11-12

11 Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,

12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

These two verses tell us that leading a quiet life should stay in our minds as a iifetime goal. Why? Because a quiet life wins respect of others. Even though traditional Roman citizens of Thessalonica may disagree with your Christian lifestyle, you still need to live a life that people will like. They should still want to associate with you rather than want to ostracize you.

So, look at your life and decide whether or not onlookers will see your morals, your food/beverage consumption, your ways for having fun, your job, and your friends and say to themselves, "I think he is a good example of the kind of up-standing life that I want my children to consider"


With today's conceptions, *sipping* one glass of Whiskey/Ginger Ale or having a one glass of wine at family get together is fine.
Gulping down two or three glass during the get-together and continuing such consumption on a regular basis is NOT okay. Going to the movies to see HARRY POTTER is okay. Most sensible people trust informed Christians who can fairly evaulate the ideas of the secular world. Going to see the lastest porn-flick is obviously not okay because it will draw toward you unpopular attention. When you go into a restaurant, satisfy your appetite but don't eat like a slob. People will find you disgusting and will not want to eat around you.

On the whole, when I look at my life, I avoid the extremes. I don't think God wants us to live extremes. I gently, caution people who do completely abstain from alcohol or secular movies or from certain "unpure" foods (like coffee) by asking them how affective could they be as minister if they forsake our greatest gift: life and the ability to relize that enjoying it is a gift from God. Even though Paul was out-spoken, he always kept a persona that non-Christians could not help but admire for its genuineness if not for its constitution.

God Bless you!

 

Trevor Acorn (that name is about as funny as mine. ...)

You might consider reading some of John Fischer's work--I am reading a book called Real Christians Don't Dance, and I think Dr. Bob said there is one out about Pharisees. . .Might be interesting reading for you.