Ezekiel 18 Falling away and become wicked

It is the game of "lost vs lostER" for those who cling to OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons


By definining all these attributes as the "lost condition" there are some who spin the Bible around standing it on it's head to argue that "failure to persevere in being lost means you are really REALLY lost".

in Christ,

Bob

 

People can be enlightened and not be saved, Kay. I had a brother who died a drunkard back in July. He would tell you himself he knew Jesus was the Son of God. And yet, he was not saved.

Many people profess Christ with their lips and do not want to give their hearts over to Him. These people, even though they believe Jesus is the Christ, are not saved.

Faith without works is dead, being alone. A true confession and profession will produce a change in that one, not leave him in his filth.

 

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul cleansed AND "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons

Trying to spin that list into nothing but "enlightened" is not exegesis - nor does it deal with the specifics of the argument where scripture SHOWS us that falling AWAY from that condition is in fact being "severed from Christ" and is "the lost state".

By contrast SFC is arguing that NOT falling away from it is ALSO the lost condition.

There is no Bible text in support of such an all-for-OSAS approach.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Good point.

Also if you know of anyone else in the other BB forums that have a good understanding of that point - please envite them to join us here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob

Since you asked, I will respond to your plea.

Saving faith includes all three of Knowledge-Belief-Trust. Those in Heb 6:4-6 attained to the first two, but did not reach Trust, and thus were never saved. They knew of the Saviour and what he came to do, they were enlightened to believe it to be true, but they never trusted it for themselves, IE John 6:66. Having been enlightened and yet never trusted, these people fell away from belief. Those who deny the eternal security of the believer also have not yet reached Trust, which is a requirement of saving faith.

EVERLASTING life is uninterruptible, if you believe it can be lost, instead of wasting so much time arguing whether or not one can lose their salvation, you would be better off spending the time examining yourself to see why you personally, currently do not have EVERLASTING life.

John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


BGTF

 

HP: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life”

What does belief entail?

 

I have also seen this..in my own husband before he was saved. He wasn't a drunkard though. He would tell me that he believed in Jesus and believed that He died for his sins, but he knew he was lacking something. He would see me reading my Bible and ask questions sometimes. He would say he wished he could understand and he wished he "felt" the same as I did about God. Sometimes though, he would get angry when I tried to talk to him about God and accuse me of preaching.
Then one day after going through a really hard time trying to deal with job pressures and being asked to do immoral things (like lie) in his work, he finally let go and trusted Jesus. He will tell you today that at that moment he KNEW Jesus came into his heart. He now knows the Lord and doesn't just know "of" Him.
There is a huge difference in having knowledge of the Lord and having the Lord. It's a difference of life and death.

 

The following by Louis T. Talbot is from his book Bible Questions Explained --—

In these words the Holy Spirit refers to Hebrews, many of whom were INTELLECTUALLY convinced that Jesus was the Messiah. But because of bitter persecution, they were going away from the light they had, returning to Judaism.

Four things are said of the privileges these Hebrews were rejecting.

1. They WERE “ENLIGHTENED.” So also is every man who hears the Gospel, whether he accepts Christ or not. These were enlightened, but not born again.

2. They had “TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT.” Now it is one thing to taste; it is another thing to eat. Christ Himself is the Heavenly Gift. How many sinners have been under conviction, have admired the beautiful life of our Lord, have acknowledged that he died for a lost world, have even admitted that they expect one day to accept Him as a personal Saviour, and yet have refused to open their hearts to Him. They are among those who have only “tasted of the heavenly gift.”

3. They had been made “PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST.” Now the word “partakers” in the Greek means those who had been “going along with” the Holy Spirit, “in company with” Him. Every Jew who witnessed the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and heard Peter’s sermon, as recorded in the second chapter of Acts, was “in company with” the Holy Spirit. But, you will remember, the record tells us that some mocked and said, “These men are full of new wine” (Ac 2:13). To witness the power of the Holy Spirit is one thing; to be baptized by the Holy Spirit is another.

4. They had “TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWER OF THE WORLD TO COME”; that is, they had heard the Word of God, and had seen the dead raised, the leper cleansed, the eyes of the blind opened--—enough to convince them that Jesus was their Messiah and Lord.

Concerning these the Holy Spirit says: “It is impossible ... if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance.” If they deliberately refuse to accept Christ as the only One who can save them, then they are doing the very same thing their fathers did; for they “crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

Moreover, if this passage of Scripture was written concerning Christians, it is very discouraging to those who hold “the falling away” doctrine; for they say a man can be saved, “fall away” or be lost, and then be converted again; whereas this passage from the Word of God says, “It is IMPOSSIBLE ... if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance.”

Do you not see the fallacy of this doctrine, my friend? This one passage alone contradicts it definitely and finally.

But please note further the illustration given by the Holy Spirit in the verses which follow; it bears out the fact that verses 4-6 were written concerning those who had been “enlightened,” but not regenerated. In other words, the saved man “bringeth forth” fruit; but the man who rejects the Heavenly Gift bears “thorns and briers.” We are not saved by our good works; but we are saved unto good works. And “by their fruits ye shall know them.”

Yet another convincing proof of the fact that verses 4-6 describe the enlightened, but unregenerate, is seen in verse nine and the following verses. Here the Holy Spirit turns, as it were, from a description of those who had rejected Christ, and addresses the truly born-again Hebrew Christians. He calls them “beloved.” And He says, “But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you”--—He had referred to the unregenerated as “those” (verse 4). Of “you,” “beloved” of God, “we are persuaded better things” than merely an intellectual knowledge. “We are persuaded ... things that accompany salvation.” These words unmistakably prove that, in the preceding verses, the born again souls were not in view at all.

And in verses 13-20, which follow, we find one of the strongest passages bearing upon the eternal security of the believer to be found in all the Word of God. The illustration is given of Jehovah’s promise to Abraham, at which time God confirmed His Word by His oath. According to the law of Moses, two or three witnesses were required to establish a fact in point of law. And here we read that by God’s Word and God’s oath--—by these two “immutable,” unchangeable things, we have a hope, “an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast.” What could be more plain, more reassuring, my friend? God’s Word is unchanging; His promise is sure! (Louis T. Talbot, Bible Questions Explained, pp. 112-114)

Things Hard To Be Understood: David Cloud

 

Mental assent to information.


BGTF

 

Boy did Louis T. Talbot ever miss it there.

 

It is not Louis Talbot that missed it. The Scripture clearly shows one cannot lose one's Salvation. Louis Talbot was right on.

 

Right, HP is merely refusing to give mental assent to it.

BGTF

 

HP: Who said they were never saved or had not reached a state of trust?

Why do you add trust and knowledge anyway, when Scripture states belief alone? You say that saving faith includes belief, but according to this verse it is only belief. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” If belief is as you say, merely a mental assent to information, tell me why these in Hebrews were not saved having obviously fulfilled the ‘belief,’ the ’mental assent’ portion you say belief entailed and the only thing the passage requires?

 

It's real simple, 'belief' is one thing, 'belief on' is another, it includes trust.

You can tell me you believe a bridge can hold you to go across, but you don't get to trust until you get on the bridge.


BGTF

 

Eternal security is the Bible confidence that every born again believer has perfect, complete, eternal salvation in Jesus Christ. As soon as a sinner receives Christ, he possesses full, unending salvation. To have Christ is to have a secure position before God (1Jo 5:10-13). Though the Bible does not use the term "security" to describe the believer's relationship in Christ, it leaves no doubt that the child of God is eternally safe in Christ. Eternal security refers only to those who are born again through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. It does not refer to hypocrites or to those who are merely dabbling in the things of Christ. Those who permanently fall away have never been born again.

Eternal security is denied by many Christian groups, particularly most Pentecostals and many Charismatics. For example, the doctrinal statement of the Assemblies of God, article 8, section 1, states: "The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost."


How We Can Be Sure True Christians Are Eternally Secure

1. Because of the terms used to describe salvation.

"eternal life" (Joh 3:16; 1Jo 5:11);
"full assurance" (Heb 6:11; Col 2:2);
"strong consolation" (Heb 6:18);
"hope ... sure and stedfast" (Heb 6:19).

2. Because of what we are.
All of the following are spoken of in the present tense; this is the present condition of each true believer

(1) Forgiven (Ro 4:7; 1Jo 2:12).
(2) Justified (Ro 5:1,9; Tit 3:7)
(3) Reconciled (Ro 5:10).
(4) Risen with Christ (Ro 6:3-6; Col 3:1-2).
(5) A child of God forever (Ro 8:15; Ga 4:4-7; 1Jo 3:1).
(6) Sanctified in Christ (1Co 1:2).
(7) New creation (2Co 5:17).
(8) Accepted in the beloved (Eph 1:6).
(9) Saved (Eph 2:8-9; 2Ti 1:9).
(10) Light in the Lord (Eph 5:8).
(11) Made fit for Heaven (Col 1:12).
(12) Complete in Him (Col 2:10).
(13) Citizens of Heaven (Php 3:20).
(14) Children of light (1Th 5:5).
(15) Elect (1Pe 1:2).
(16) Born again (1Pe 1:2,23).
(17) Sanctified once for all (Heb 10:10).
(18) Perfected forever (Heb 10:14).
(19) Passed from death unto life (1Jo 3:14).

3. Because of where we are.

(1) In God's family (Ga 3:26; 1Jo 3:2).
(2) Brought near (Eph 2:13).
(3) In the heavenlies with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
(4) Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).

4. Because of what we have.

(1) Eternal life (Joh 3:16).
(2) Peace with God (Ro 5:1).
(3) An Intercessor in Heaven (Ro 8:34).
(4) All spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3).
(5) Forgiveness of sins (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 2:13).
(6) Sealing of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:12-14).
(7) Access to God (Eph 2:18).
(8) Everlasting consolation (2Th 2:16).
(9) Eternal glory (2Ti 2:10).
(10) Eternal redemption (Heb 9:12).
(11) Mercy (1Pe 2:10).
(12) An Advocate with the Father (1Jo 2:1-2).

5. Because of what is past.

(1) Condemnation (Joh 5:24).
(2) The law of sin and death (Ro 8:2).
(3) Death and wrath (Col 3:3; Ro 6:11; 1Th 5:9).
(4) Night and darkness (1Th 5:5).

6. Because of our promises.

(1) Never perish (Joh 10:27-28).
(2) Shall never die (Joh 11:26).
(3) The glory of God (Ro 5:2). This speaks of Christ's kingdom
glory.
(4) Shall be saved from wrath (Ro 5:9).
(5) Glorious liberty of the children of God (Ro 8:21).
(6) Redemption of the body (Ro 8:23-24; Php 3:21).
(7) Predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ (Ro
8:28-29).
(8) Cannot be separated from God's love (Ro 8:31-39).
(9) God shall confirm you unto the end (1Co 1:8).
(10) He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the
day of Jesus Christ (Php 1:6).
(11) Shall appear with Christ in glory (Col 3:3-4).
(12) Delivered from the wrath to come (1Th 1:10).
(13) Not appointed to wrath but to salvation (1Th 5:9).
(14) Eternal inheritance (Heb 9:15).
(15) Incorruptible inheritance (1Pe 1:4).
taken from Way of Life Encyclopedia

Our Salvation is a contract that cannot be breached. Man cannot break that which God has sealed.

What He shutteth, no man openeth.

 

HP: Now how can you agree with him? He does not seem to know that the verse in Hebrews has nothing to do with believers. Why would he even suggest that one that believes believers can fall away would have anything to do with a text that only speaks of non-believers?? Someone needs to tell him that we have been enlightened on the text thanks to SFIC, and cannot be seen as worrisome in the least to us believers that accept the Word of God that indeed the possibility exists that we can fall away and that we can restored. Only for non-believers is it impossible to be restored once enlightened. That is who the text is addressing.

 

Faith without works is dead, being alone. As BGTF pointed out, it is not until you put that belief into action that that belief it complete.

My brother, as I said, made a profession that Jesus was the Christ. He said he believed that Jesus died on the cross for his sins. And yet, Melvin died a drunkard. He died with cirrhosis of the liver and refused to hear the gospel the last few days of his life.

There is no doubt in my mind that Melvin, although professing Christ, died and went to hell. He loved his alcohol more than he loved the Lord... if indeed he loved the Lord at all. I tend to believe he did not have a love for the Lord.

No man can serve two masters. He will hate one and love the other. Melvin was a servant to sin.

 

HP: I missed the passage mentioning ‘belief on.’ Do you have that reference by chance?

 

It's a shame you missed it, because you quoted it.

BGTF

 

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) (John 7:39)

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? (John 9:35)

He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? (John 9:36)

If we let him thus alone, all [men] will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. (John 11:48)

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (John 17:20)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (Acts 19:4)

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; (Romans 4:24)

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Philippians 1:29)

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. (1 Timothy 1:16)

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23)

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

There are 14 verses that use the term 'believe on'. Take your pick.

Believe on means 'commit to trust'.