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Featured 'Faith Alone' and James 2:24.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Martin Marprelate, Mar 15, 2016.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I apologize for not having posted on this thread for a while.
    I will endeavour to do so tomorrow evening.
     
  2. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Why bother when you believe that the persons works are what is salvific and that a persons works are the methodology of justification?

    Justification is by faith, not by works.
     
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God commands works. Not everyone weighs what God commands and figures well I'll do it so long as if there is something in it for me.

    Folk always PRIORITIZING on their selfish paradise, wants, desires, heaven, legalism, avoid suffering.

    How about if I told you if anyone does Good Works the command of God they go straight to hell?

    We do it with a glad heart. You can keep my salvation. I do the command of God for free.

    James 2 8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

    Of what value is the command of GOD? Its a worthless thing when it doesn't reward you?
    We've set it ABOVE salvation.

    The good works Love God and love neighbor. You teach folks well you won't get salvation from loving God.

    We teach you get LOVING GOD from LOVING GOD! Which about makes salvation look like dirt next to good meal.

    Even if I can give you my faith that 2nd helping of dirt is not better then the bread of life.

    Some of you folks ought to really contemplate your priorities.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    So I ask again:

    Show me even one eternal judgment passage that is not about our works.

    Just one ITL, just one. Surely as adamant you are about 'faith alone', you can produce a passage that proves we go to heaven on account of our faith in lieu of our works.

    Come on. I dare you. I challenge you. Show us that it's our faith that takes us to heaven and not our works.
     
    #24 kyredneck, Mar 20, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  5. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    There you go again, building a straw man. If you didn't have those to beat up on you'd be one lonely feller.

    And you're still building it because you refuse to concede that no one believes your straw man argument.

    As I said, why bother. You believe works are the justifying method. They are not. :) IOW, you believe in a works gospel. Believe me my friend, you're not that good! None are.
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Just the one? OK. Luke 7:50.
     
  7. walkinspirit

    walkinspirit Member

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    I see here a false dichotomy of faith and good works. Or we are playing with words I think. When Apostle Paul talked of faith he meant a saving faith in Jesus not some mental consent to a doctrine of justification.

    We are to believe in a living Christ, not a dead orthodoxy. It's Him not an it that saves us, and Jesus said that a good tree will bear good fruit and a bad tree will bear bad fruit. Our fruit won't be possible without our union with Christ. If I really have a saving faith in Christ it will change my heart and life, I will be a new man and as I obey Jesus and the word of God my life sooner or later will bear fruit.

    Our fruit is the final test or proof that we are really genuine christian and that's why in the last judgement we will be judged for every word, thought and deed and also whatever work that we have done in the Lord will endure the test of fire and we will be rewarded.

    True justification is not just God declaring us righteous by faith which is true but it also includes the impartation of Christ righteousness in us. We are not only clothed with Him, we become like Him in our character by the sanctifying grace.

    Christ is our righteousness and sanctification. In Christ we have all the blessings we need. When God declares righteous a sinner by faith like he did Abraham, He will make that sinner a saint by the same obedient faith in Him. Our identity in Christ will be a saint, a new creation, a new man, if we are in Christ; even though in our humility we should consider ourselves as a sinner saved by grace and give all glory to Him. I hear it all the time preachers declaring Christ imputed righteousness but being silent on Christ imparted righteousness. If we deny Christ imparted righteousness in our lives we believe a gosple that is antinomianism.
     
    #27 walkinspirit, Mar 20, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No you don't. What you have done is to conflate faith and love which is in error.

    Ephesians 2:8 says that our salvation is by faith and that it is a gift.

    v. 9 says it is not a result of works.

    Romans 6:23 says salvation is a gift of God.

    Saying things like "alone" is not in scripture is not helpful. The reasons are that 1.) other words even Catholics rely on are not in scripture like the word "Trinity" but we use to to describe, in a more succinct manner, the doctrine taught in scripture. Much in the same way when one says Salvation is through Faith alone that is merely being more succinct. The verses I have listed support the use of the word "alone".
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Ephesians 2:8
    8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


    See it clearly says its BY GRACE. We want the accuracy of scripture. We wholeheartedly agree the is a gift of God.

    Now what is his motive for the gift? We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS.



    But nothing proves me right better then your reply. See if the shoe was in the other foot, believing only faith can save you, I would not bother with the GOOD WORK of informing you of your mistake.

    Since I sincerely believe no advisory on my part nor even if you engaged in the good work of taking my advice, like the good works of reading scripture or the good works to praying to Jesus has any bearing on the salvation of your soul.

    Instead, I trust Jesus at worst request Jesus to give you faith.

    In short, I don't think you believe what you say you believe.

    As I understand it. I could be misrepresenting. Explain how my ACTUAL practice of FAITH ALONE would or would not work.



    Jesus Christ is our exemplar who we follow. Jesus did not practice Faith Alone. You didn't see Jesus grovel to some other guy to save him. He did works, instructed others to do works.

    Our example of how to be Christians is JESUS CHRIST. He didn't run around wonder how to save his own life. Instead he gave his life for us.


    All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are square. Love of God it contains Faith.

    Faith alone without love exists. James 2 tells us its a dead body. Its a real thing.

    1 Corinthians 13 says you can have ALL FAITH, You can have perfect faith that even moves mountains, No love it is nothing.

    If faith was a word that automatically indicated containing love, we would be alright. Till then make a new word up for a loyal or loving faith.

    If you say "Loving Faith Alone" I'D say AMEN right away.


    These two words BELIEVE and FAITH. Have no bearing on good and evil or loyal or not.

    The Devil, Satan, Believes in God and has Faith In God. That doesn't mean he likes God at all.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What is it you think "by grace" means?



    Faith does not just mean believing in a set of facts. It means to trust, it means to count on, it means to rely on. Saving faith wants the Savior as well as the gift of the Savior.
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Grace is like the divine kick in the pants. God's will.

    We can all agree all credit goes to God. Not only for salvation but for all good things


    If God were to tell the devil tomorrow he gets a whipping, The devil is going to trust him, It still doesn't mean he likes him. He will still expects a whipping.

    If it was understood faith on its own contained righteousness there would not have been a James 2 and Corinthians would not have called it nothing.

    1 Corinthians 13
    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

    I'm not saying we don't need faith, we do, but it solely or alone is not the deciding factor of right and wrong.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Right, I finally find myself with a bit of time to spare. Where to begin?
    Faith, as it applies to faith towards God, must necessarily precede our love for Him. How can we love someone we don't believe in? Once we believe, love must surely follow, and indeed, increase, as we come to realise all that He has done for us, but someone who doesn't believe in God or in His promises cannot really love Him.

    Next, what is faith? 'Faith is the realization of things hoped for, the confidence of things not seen' (Hebrews 11:1, NKJV margin). Specifically, it is being sure of things you can't prove.
    'By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going' (Heb. 11:8). Now imagine Abraham saying, "I really believe that God wants me to leave Ur and go out into the wilderness," and then staying right where he was. What sort of faith would that be? True faith always results in action. If you believe something is so, you act upon that belief. But Abraham was not justified by leaving Ur. Not at all. 'And [Abraham] believed God, and He accounted it to him for righteousness' (Gen. 15:6). His leaving Ur was proof that Abraham believed God.

    Next, what is 'Justification'? It is the act of declaring someone righteous (or 'not guilty').
    Deuteronomy 25:1. '....They justify the righteous and condemn the wicked.'
    Isaiah 5:23. ''Who justify the wicked for a bribe......'
    Luke 16:15. "You are they who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts.'

    So how does God declare sinful men and women righteous? By grace, through faith.
    Romans 5:1. 'Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.'
    Eph. 2:8-9. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast..'
    Rom. 4:4-5. 'Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'
    But how can a righteous God declare sinful people righteous without requiring works? It doesn't seem fair.
    Romans 3:25-26. [Jesus Christ] whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.'
    God can declare sinners righteous, and still be righteous Himself, because the Lord Jesus has taken away their sins on the cross.

    But the faith that justifies is more than just acquiescence to a statement about Jesus Christ. Saving faith, as we have seen above in the case of Abraham, will always result in action. The action will declare that our faith is genuine. This is James' argument in James 214ff. When he says, 'You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only' (James 2:24), he is saying that our works will declare us righteous because they prove that our faith is genuine. 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?' Yes! His works declared him to be justified by faith. 'And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness' (James 2:21, 23). Any other interpretation of James 2 will put it in conflict with Romans and Galatians. This is how James and Paul are harmonized.













     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Ok well you are using reasoning without any supporting scripture. All of your statements and sripture quoting misses the point I made.
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    1 Corinthians 13

    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.


    Not only is the faith to remove mountains useless when it has no love.
    You can give away all possessions to feed the poor even give up your life with GREAT FAITH and BELIEF.

    .....you have no love? Its trash. Nothing.


    God is Love. From Love all creation comes. Love invented faith. Love is worshiped.


    It doesn't say "God so faithed the world he gave his son." Love calls the shots.

    It doesn't say, "But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is FAITH."


    Love is the highest authority, GOD.



    To state you don't need Love is to declare you don't need God, This is sin.
     
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You're like jello before it gets stuck in the fridge.
     
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well I certainty don't want to misrepresent your position and admit I may be wrong about what you believe.


    I provided scripture.

    1 Corinthians 13
    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



    What does this phrase mean?
    if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains


    Its gonna take some real heavy chop shop to make that mean anything other then it says. In fact it would be a half a miracle if for some folks to even accepted this verse exists. Usually when I bring it up a person doesn't dare mention it.


    If Paul knew justification/grace and all the goodies were found in faith alone, he wouldn't even have wrote that phrase.

    James, Paul and Jesus had that problem with folks.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Thank you. Laugh
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    My friend, you haven't answered the question I posed to you in my post yesterday. Here it is again:

    How can you love someone you don't believe exists or you don't believe is who he says he is?
    Faith must come first; then love. But if your faith in Christ does not lead you to love Him and to love other Christians, your faith is worthless.

    Justification is by faith alone, but it doesn't stay alone.
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    So God loves someone before they exist.

    Love is God.

    LOVE doesn't "come". Because Love is everlasting Alpha and Omega.

    I'm not saying God is like love. Flat out God is Love.

    1 John 4
    19We love, because He first loved us.




    Matthew 5
    46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


    The ability to Love is universal. The qualification wasn't like Pharisees believed based on status.
    Sermon on the Mount sure is very basic Christianity. But it is foundational as Christ states Matthew 7. Theres a reason its the first teaching you hear.

    This is very BASIC Christianity If you can't get this stuff straight its no surprised the rest is a mess.


    Matthew 6
    14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


    Martin, Had your idea of Jesus existed. He would walk up the mount.....Alright guys just trust me I got this.....amen......

    And that is ALL he would say.

    That would be all we had heard.

    But if I challenge you with my idea of Christ, what would he do? This strange Jesus who thinks LOVE is the first priority, Who thinks Good works are a priority and teaching every single soul these things GOOD or EVIL.

    I wanna know what you think my Jesus would do.
     
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Indeed He does (Ephesians 1:4 etc.).
    No. The Bible doesn't say that. You have made it up. Plenty of people have made love their god and made shipwreck of their lives.
    God's love is everlasting and unchangeable. Ours is not, alas.
    God is love, but love is not all that God is.
    I would venture the opinion that 1 John 5:16, along with Matthew 7:1, is the verse most abused and misunderstood in the Bible.

    However, none of this alters the fact that we sinful humans cannot love God before we believe in Him.
    Faith comes first; then love.

    You speak of the Sermon on the Mount. Bear in mind it was spoken to disciples, not unbelievers (Matthew 5:1-2).
    You have no idea, no idea at all. You are writing complete rubbish. You cannot love someone, you cannot serve someone until you believe in him.
    You don't challenge me. Not at all. I don't need you to tell me that God is love. But He is also 'the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though He may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?' (John 11:25-26).

    Well? Do you?
     
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