Faith and OSAS. Issues in Conflict

Heavenly Pilgrim: //
I believe you are playing a formal game of logic with the Scriptures to the detriment of truth, but I am not your judge.//

Well, then let me psyco-alalyzie you.
I beleive you are being illogical with the Scriptures to
the detriment of truth. But I'm not your judge.

Heavenly Pilgrim: //HP: If you finish the race, you will receive a prize. //

that statement is true.

If you DO NOT finish the race,
then you will NOT receive a prize.

That also can be true. Re-read the rule:

The truth value of
"if p, then q"
does not imply the same truth value of
"if NOT p, then NOT q" .))

Which is true logic.

It does NOT say:
The truth value of
"if p, then q"
CAN not imply the same truth value of
"if NOT p, then NOT q"

I.E. the following are possible:

TRUE "if p, then q"
TRUE "if NOT p, then NOT q"

TRUE "if p, then q"
FALSE "if NOT p, then NOT q"

You just can't tell when
"if p, then q"
is TRUE
what the status of
"if NOT p, then NOT q"
might be.
It's status TRUE or FALSE must be determined
independant of the truth of
"if p, then q"

 

Yep, the non-OSAS agreer must say that.
An OSAS person sez this is the case:

TRUE "if p, then q"
FALSE "if NOT p, then NOT q"

So we have completely flayed ONE HORSE in the
non-OSAS versus OSAS stable.

(At least it keeps us from beating on each other )

 

Alright Brother HP (Heavenly Pilgrim), sounds good:

John 3:14-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
And as Moses lifted vp the serpent in the wildernesse:
euen so must the Sonne of man be lifted vp:
15 That whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish,
but haue eternall life.
16 For God so loued ye world,
that he gaue his only begotten Sonne:
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish,
but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne into the world
to condemne the world: but that the world
through him might be saued.

From this I get:

salvation = should not perish, but haue euerlasting life
salvation = should not perish, but haue eternall life

This is the definition of 'salvation' as used many places
in the Bible. Salvation is taking away perishing
and having everlasting life (AKA: eternal life).

 

Quote:
BR: A true Arminian can KNOW FOR CERTAIN they are saved today but can not know if ten years from today they will continue to choose to accept Christ.

#1 Arminians (at least many on THIS BOARD) do claim to hold to OSAS "anyay" -- just ask Eric. Brother Bob may also be in that group.

#2. 5 Point Calvinists CAN NOT logically claim to know that they are SAVED TODAY - since they have no clue if they will "persevere 10 years from today" and when they DO fail to persevere 10 years from today they will THEN claim that what they claimed to be assured of today - is false.

Thereby playing right into your hands.

However the Arminian POV totally defeats your argument since the Arminian position allows for FULL and aCCURATE assurance today according to the rule of 1John 5 and Rom 8:16 EVEN if you fail to persevere 10 years from today. (By the way - 4 point Calvinists will make that same claim and have a logical basis for doing it)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Right, it doesn't imply that.

However, the Bible does show // ... if one does not believe
he will not have eternal or everlasting life//

Apparently, Bro. you are still missing that
'if A, then B' is true
this gives no clues to the truth value of
'if NOT A, then NOT B'.
The second proposition must be proved seperately.

Joh 3:1821 (KJV1611 Edition):
He that beleeueth on him, is not condemned:
but hee that beleeueth not, is condemned already,
because hee hath not beleeued in the Name
of the onely begotten Sonne of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light
is come into the world, and men loued
darknesse rather then light, because their deedes were euill.
20 For euery one that doeth euill,
hateth the light, neither commeth
to the light, lest his deeds should be reproued.
21 But hee that doeth trueth, commeth to the light,
that his deeds may be made manifest,
that they are wrought in God.


There is a BIG difference betwen 'not believing' (and not
being saved)' and 'not enduring (and not staying saved)'.

'not believing' means Jesus never came into the picture
to save the person.
'not enduring' means that humans are weak and fail
BUT JESUS is very GOD and is omni-potent (all powerful),
even if the human cannot endure to the end; Jesus God
can and will endure to the end.

Jesus saves. Our words don't save; our works don't save.

 

Sorry, Romans 11 isn't about individuals and eternal salvation.
Romans 11 is about Israel (Jews) as a nation compared to
Gentiles. Salvation is about individual Israeli (Jews) and
individual Gentiles.

 

Ed,

I disagree.

Romans 11 is not just for Jews only. It tells, God removed Jews from the tree because of their unbelief, but, believing Jews are remain on the same tree. God added Gentiles on the tree, to join with believing Jews> God is no respect with any person either Jew or Gentiles - Romans 2:11. All have sinned. We should be fear of the Lord, if we stopped beliving, He could removed us from the tree same with John 15:6. If we do not produce fruit or do not abide in Christ, we could be removed away. Romans 11 is apply to every individual both Jew and Gentile.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Consider the OP:

Heavenly Pilgrim: //The issue I wish to address is the issue of salvation
held by faith or salvation held by absolute knowledge as OSAS assumes. //

This is a false dilimma.
These are not the only posibilities. There is no
need for 'absolute knowledge' assumed by OSAS.
In fact, we believe OSAS solely by faith in
Jesus Christ and His completed WORKS in the
Resurrection.

 

HP: //When we say that the we have absolute knowledge
that we are saved, and via this knowledge there
is no chance whatsoever of losing our salvation,
we have left the bedrock of faith and entered
into the realm of absolute knowledge.//

I respectfully disagree.
I believe by faith (with some evidence from the Bible):
There is no chance whatsoever of losing our salvation

 

1 John 5:12-13 (KJV1611 Edition):

Hee that hath the Sonne, hath life;
and hee that hath not the Sonne, hath not life.
13 These things haue I written vnto you that beleeue
on the Name of the Sonne of God,
that ye may know, that ye haue eternall life,
and that yee may beleeue on the Name of the Sonne of God.


Notice this Biblical proof of the type shown nearby:

Hee that hath the Sonne, hath life;
and hee that hath not the Sonne, hath not life.

'If A, then B' is true
'If NOT A, then NOT B' is true.

Both of the two independant arguments are given IN THE SAME VERSE.


Absolute Knowledge that you have eternal life is
AT THE END OF ETERNITY. But eternity has no end,
therefore you can never have Absolute Knowledge
that you are saved. But faith abounds & hope holds
it's hands.

When we've been there (like in heaven, you know)
ten thousand years, we will be somwhat sure we are saved.
When we've been there a million years,
we will be rather sure we are saved.
When we've been there a google (ten to the hundredth power)
times a million years, we will be sure.
But we can never have Absolute Knowledge, for eternity has
no end.

 

Phillipians 1:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath
begun a good work in you, will performe
it vntil the day of Iesus Christ:

Yes, I have faith that once you are saved, you are always
(eternally) saved. Yes, I believe (faith) that OSAS (once saved,
always saved) is true.

 

HP: //It seems a bit strange to me that if in eternity we sill
only be “ somewhat sure” in the first ten thousand years, ... //

Obviously you don't understand the nature of 'eternity'.
Time is a finite subset of an infinite'eternity'.
You are already 'in eternity'.
I've been living (first life) as a Christian, born-again
persion in eternity for 55 years. Remember, you can't have

"absolute knowledge (knowledge of which deception is impossible)"
of eternity until the 'end' (but eternity has no end,
a mystery known only to God). You and I haven't been
there, but God has. God is omni-temporal so is at all times
all the time.

HP: //If there is absolutely no way to be deceived in this life as to OSAS as it applies to an individual’s life, and you say that it is held by faith, you have just defined faith as absolute knowledge whether or not you try and refute holding to absolute knowledge or not. That is simply being inconsistent IMO and setting forth an oxymoron intentionally or not.//

Tee Hee, yes, i accept your admission of being argued under
the table. Now, what does one have to do to stay saved?

 

Anybody ready for trans-infinite numbers?