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Featured Faith plus right beliefs

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Michael Wrenn, Jun 9, 2012.

?
  1. Those who hold to faith alone in Jesus

    45.5%
  2. Those who hold to faith in Jesus plus works

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Those who hold to faith in Jesus plus right beliefs

    18.2%
  4. Baptists only who believe as I do

    9.1%
  5. Anyone who has faith in Jesus -- Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, etc.

    36.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    You initiated the personal attacks and insults. I did not. I don't mind someone attacking doctrines.

    You and matt wade have called me a cultist several times, and you have compared me with Satan several times.

    You and wade initiated it; I defended myself.

    You are a habitual liar and hypocrite.

    If you want to discuss doctrine, have at it. But do it without calling me a cultist, a deceiver, comparing me with Satan, saying I'm training thieves and robbers and all the other personal attacks you slandered me with.

    So, you want to bring Dr. Bob into it? Well, I have already reported you and wade to him. He told me he would stop you.
     
    #261 Michael Wrenn, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2012
  2. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    From contendforthefaith2
    Sometimes the question is phrased like this: "What happens to the innocent native in deepest Africa who never hears the gospel?" If one puts it this way, the answer is easy: the innocent person has nothing to worry about! As R.C. Sproul has said, "The innocent native who never hears of Christ is in excellent shape, and we need not be anxious about his redemption. The innocent person doesn't need to hear of Christ. He has no need of redemption. God never punishes innocent people. The innocent person needs no Savior; he can save himself by his innocence" (Sproul, p. 49).

    The problem, however, is that there is no such thing as the innocent native in Africa, or anywhere! The Bible teaches that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 6:23) and "there is none righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10). In fact, the Scriptures go so far as to say that left to ourselves, "there is none who seeks for God" (Romans 3:11).

    This leads us to an important principle: the person who has never heard of Christ is already condemned--not because they haven't accepted a Savior they've never heard about, but because they have sinned against what they do know about God. But one may ask, "What has this native known about God that He could reject?" The answer is in the distinction the Bible makes between general revelation and special revelation. Special revelation is the message that Christ died and rose again for sins, and that salvation comes through trusting in Him. This message is only revealed in the Bible, and therefore the only people who get special revelation are those who either hear it from others or read it for themselves. General revelation is "the mute non-verbal witness of the creation that points men to the existence of God" (Robert Morey, Studies in the Atonement, p. 246). Since general revelation is given through nature, all humans are aware of it. The Bible teaches that everyone, through the general revelation of nature, knows that God the Father exists and is holy (Romans 1:18-21) and that they are sinful (Romans 1:32; 2:14-15) and thus are deserving of death (Romans 1:32). Therefore, all humans to ever live, whether they have heard of Christ or not, are guilty and without excuse before God for rejecting what they do know about God (Romans 1:20, 21; 3:23).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is only one way a person can obtain Salvation, and that way is through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. All mankind has sinned, yes, that includes the mentally challenged and is in need of a Savior.
     
  3. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    All right, I can deal with this. I can refute it and have done so by the scriptures I have already posted. I can do so without resorting to personal attacks, however.

    I actually partially agree with some of it.

    All have inherited the consequences of Adam's sin, and all have a damaged and weakened will because of the Fall. And all will sin. But where I disagree is what I've stated before: I believe scripture teaches that God judges those who haven't heard on what they do with the light they have; He does this through the work that Jesus did.

    Why couldn't you have done this all along? Could you not passionately disagree with me without personally attacking me? I can with you.

    Since we both did it here, I have some hope that we can do it again -- if you should desire continued dialog.

    Speaking of the severely mentally retarded, do you hold that they can be saved? If so, how?

    I am ready to leave all that's happened between us in the past, if you are. That's my olive leaf to you -- would have said "branch" but don't know if I can go that far yet; depends on you. :)
     
    #263 Michael Wrenn, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2012
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So once again, you say that there is salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, which is unbiblical. You have shown nothing from Scripture and those verses you mentioned have already been discussed, showing the opposite of what you say they do.
     
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Nope, not saying that.

    I've shown everything from scripture, and the verses I cited mean exactly what I said they do.
     
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    We have already shown you that they do not say what you say they do. Scripture is crystal clear - believe on the name of Jesus and you will be saved. There is no other salvation.
     
  7. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    Your private interpretation of those Scriptures falls flat when all other Scripture is taken into consideration.

    Romans 3... you know, the one that follows your pet chapter?... reveals that by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified and that there is none righteous, no not one.

    The Apostle Paul continues in Chapter 5 by revealing how man is justified, and it isn't by doing good. It is by faith in Jesus Christ.

    So much for your 'man can do good and inherit eternal life', because Scripture refutes it. Man cannot do good without first having Christ in his life.

    *edited to add that chapter 4 actually proves that we must believe to inherit eternal life.

    Romans 4:23 (KJV) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
     
    #267 Steadfast Fred, Jun 14, 2012
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  8. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    No, you haven't shown that at all.
     
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Again, you mischaracterize or don't fully represent my position. And it is not my private interpretation, as I have shown that many others throughout church history have held it.

    Scripture such as John 1:9 and Titus 2:11 affirm what is taught in Romans 2 but they add to it and clarify how God saves those who have not heard.
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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  11. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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  12. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    BTW, thanks to all who have voted in the poll.

    This thread is nearing completion, so I wanted to say that.
     
  13. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Fred, don't you ever sleep? :)

    I don't sleep much, either. I am presently teaching an online college philosophy class -- Logic -- and it's keeping me very busy. I'm spending too much time here, but I like debate.
     
  14. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    Paul clearly shows that people are not saved outside of knowing Christ over and over in the book of Romans.

    There is no justification for man who does not place his faith in Christ. We are justified, not by doing good, but by faith.

    To say man is justified by doing good is to slap Jesus in the face and to tell Him His death on the cross was not necessary.

    It is pure heresy to teach that one can be saved who never knows Christ or never hears the Gospel.

    Why didn't Paul and Silas tell the Philippian jailer that he could be saved by doing good if Salvation were possible by doing good works? Because it is impossible for man to earn Salvation by good works, that's why. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8,9 that we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God... not of works lest any man should boast.

    You can continue teaching the heretical doctrine of Salvation by doing good all you want, but you will find in the end that you did nothing but mislead people with that doctrine. People will stand before God thinking they will be accepted because they were good, and God will reveal to them that their good falls short of His Salvation. They will realize that they died in their sins.
     
    #274 Steadfast Fred, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2012
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