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Featured Faith vs Faith and Repentance

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Guido, Nov 14, 2022.

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  1. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Yeah they do

    Lazarus was PHYSICALLY dead. unable to do anything.. not even able to chose to honor his parents. or Not steal, or not commit adultry. He was able to do no good or bad.

    When Lazarus was spiritually dead. He could do all those things.

    So you can not compare the two.. to make them contradict is to make a false compairson
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    And you have shown over and over how you do not actually think the Holy Spirit knew what He meant when He said God desires all to come to repentance and trust in Him. God will save those that hear and trust the gospel message. God in His sovereignty allows man the free will to make that decision.
     
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  3. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    thats the issue, they can not understand as sovereign God he has the power to chose to do what he wants, even if it means giving people a choice.
     
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    From what I have seen on here some of the "calvinists" equate sovereign with determinism. For them God has to have absolute control or He is not sovereign. Like Sproul's no rogue molecule idea. What they will not admit is that if God has to exercise that type of control/sovereignty then that also would make Him responsible for all the good but also all the bad in the world.

    But this is how I see the sovereignty of God and how the bible shows His sovereignty.

    Here is my view “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What are you doing?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

    The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God A. W. Tozer
     
  5. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    wee see it in the beginning

    1. You can eat of every tree
    2. But of this tree. you shall not eat of it
    3. depending on what you CHOSE. you will be rewarded by that decision.
    4. if you chose to eat of the tree. dying you will die.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Thus says the Lord:
    *Habakkuk 1:5-6*
    “Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own.
    *Daniel 1:1-2*
    In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god.
    *Job 1:8-12*
    And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
    *Job 2:3-6*
    And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”
    *Job 42:11*
    Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I believe in a Total Depravity. As you already know, I believe it begins with the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:22. The result is being, what has been named "spiritually" dead. Romans 3:11 is a result.
     
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    What point are you trying make Austin? Is God sovereign of course but just not like you want Him to be.
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Do you not see the point in God's word? It is right there in each passage I quoted. You know the point, but you refuse to acknowledge, just as you refuse to answer other questions I have asked that will kick your crutch out from under your feet.
     
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  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I have told you over and over that God is sovereign He is just not your version of sovereign [deterministic] You say I do not answer questions, really you run from any question that you are asked as they put the error of your calvinist view on full display.

    I have asked you a number of times to answer what a verse means to you and you have yet to respond. You just run for cover as you are clearly unable to defend your errant view. As I have said before you are just a lot of huff and puff but no substance.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You give lip service to the Sovereignty of God while speaking constantly of the sovereignty of man. In your mind the great determiner of destiny is man. God is defeated by man's will and though God desires all, he cannot grasp it.

    Sliverhair, your god is so small and puny that no human would ever bow to your imagined creator.
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    That is saying he worked, then God saved.

     
  13. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Part of what saving faith is is a renouncing of any merit or any good work that you bring to God. It's like a hand reaching out to receive what Christ has provided. That being said then, it is not fair to declare belief a work and short circuit the argument. I know a guy who told me one time "well, at least I had sense enough to believe". In that case it maybe was a work because he was declaring himself wise and bringing his good sense to the salvation process which put him on dangerous ground. But when someone just says they were saved because they believed, if they only mean that faith was what was done on their part then that should be fine.
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I would say that is on the same track as the bible. Ephesians 1:13
     
  15. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Nope. He did nto work at all.

    He trusted in JESUS WORK

    If he worked. He would have added works of the law or righteousness to the his faith and do it because he thought those works saved him

    Saying my FAITH in the TOTAL work of christ is a work is nonsensical.
     
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  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    In your idea of salvation it is the "TRUST" that saves you, not the "grace of God" that saves you. Therefore, since you attribute " trust" as the means of salvation, this would mean that you could stop trusting at any time and you would not be saved. Have you checked out a Nazarene church lately?
     
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  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    That's what I don't like.

    Wrong 'god'.
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Lazareth is a picture of the Spiritual. No ability, Spiritually, to choose.

    Language in the Bible which seems so, is talking about Saved souls,
    i.e., "choose you this day." = to the Saved.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your reading into the text what you are looking for. That is where you fail. Jest trust in what the text in context says.
     
  20. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    Choose this day..

    Thats free will my friend.

    Lazarus was a symbol alright. A symbol that Jesus had thr power over physical death. You can’t use it spiritually, because a spiritual dead person can still choose. Why a physically dead person can not. He has lost the ability to chose.
     
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